Defending the truth seems worthwhile to me. Even if for a mega corporation. There are valid criticisms to be used… but this is not one of them. We can do better!
I’m pretty sure the meme is factually correct: you can’t run 32 bit applications on current versions of macOS. Unless something has changed recently that I don’t know of. Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps? I have a vague memory of my partner not being able to use an “old” version of an app and also not being able to update it so they simply couldn’t use it. That could be on the app developer though. Both of those a relevant to “old apps”.
If the meme is referring only to arm64 then eh I guess it’s a bit of a stretch but whatever, it’s a meme.
I agree there are many more, and much more annoying, criticisms though.
Meanwhile i got an 1988 japanase source code to compile and work on windows 11 without any problem. I can even send it if you want to see. It was written by prof emeritus Haruhiko Okamura in 1988.
Yes, he is a legendary programmer, one of the most skilled and respected computer science professors in Japan. He wrote this software which is a cli compression tool in pure C
I haven’t used iOS in 10 years, but I do recall that even on older Android devices, Netflix wants you to keep closer to the current version (oddly enough, even for a 1st or 2nd gen Chromecast?). So I think not technically, although I don’t know the current status, but even so, yeah, but same as Android too. Ofc, at some point the device gets so old that Apple won’t let you update it any longer, so that’s one way to get it to stop updating:-P.
In researching this a bit more, I confirm that 64-bit Mac not running 32-bit programs is a valid criticism. However, my original point stands: what Linux system can also allow you to do similarly? Especially across a different chip set - like why expect a 64-bit Mac M-something to run a 32-bit game compiled for Windows using a x86 architecture, without needing to install something else to specifically handle that transition? Here is an example of someone doing the same with Ubuntu, needing to first install multiple libraries before it will “just work”.
Even so, there are multiple ways to make this procedure work on a Mac. Other than dual booting with an older copy of a 32-bit OS, emulators can work at near native speeds. Granted, it’s not as convenient as Wine (I would guess?), and won’t be until someone puts in the effort to make a 64-bit version of Wine (which does exist) that will natively support 32-bit programs, again compiled for a different OS (Windows) and chip architecture (x86). It only won’t work until… you know, it does.
Which it already does, using the likes of either Parallels or VMWare Fusion, which yeah requires the complexity of downloading an additional program and setting up a VM environment.
On the other hand, notice how according to this meme, there are zero problems with Linux, like EVER. In comparison, having to download an extra program, due to an event that happened all of once in the last 20 years of computing, and even that was 6 years ago now… apparently that’s “too much work”? How did this meme creator (which seems not OP according to other comments here) figure out how to join a Lemmy - wouldn’t having to pick an instance first likewise be too much to handle?! 😜
I kid, but this kind of tribal thinking (“in-group good, out-group bad”) doesn’t help anything, imho.
Hmm the type of thinking that implies Linux users only say bad things about Apple because they don’t know what they’re talking about? :)
You can 100% run 32 bit binaries on Linux systems so the answer is all of them. The need for libraries isn’t the same as the complete inability to do so, any program with dependencies of course needs them and they of course have to be compatible. Hell with binfmt_misc you can even run arm32/aarch64 binaries, but that’s not fair I guess since it’ll be transparent qemu emulation, although still pretty cool.
Also my view of this meme isn’t that it’s implying that there are no issues, just that it doesn’t force things on you or stop you from doing things which is generally true.
Where did I say “Linux users”? Or for that matter, “only”? We were discussing the OP meme, not extrapolating beyond that to stereotype all Linux users. I mean… I use Linux, so why would I stereotype myself like that as well!?:-P
Also where did “complete inability to do so” come from? You can use emulation software such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion, or you could dual-boot into a 32-bit OS. So there’s 3 ways to accomplish the task. Granted, none as easy as if the Wine FOSS had decided to implement the task by itself, but just because they choose not to does not mean that any of those other 3 approaches will not work (bc they will).
Though yeah, I could see your last point. Tim Cook’s Apple making that business decision to switch from Intel x86 to the M-series chips and then not provide a Rosetta internal emulation system definitely can earn that for-profit corporation some negative thoughts, in comparison to FOSS. Then again, it sorta makes sense to me bc it’s a very niche case, to emulate old 32-bit x86 Windows programs on a 64-bit M-series modern Mac. They decided that the cost wasn’t worth it to them, when Parallels and VMWare Fusion already can handle the situation. So following that logic, shouldn’t we similarly be making fun of Wine, for also not stepping up to fill this gap? And all the more so bc it’s not a greedy for-profit megamaniacal corporation, but supposed to be there to provide for people’s needs, free of cost? I wonder what the logic behind that was? Perhaps that Steam exists now, so the need for such is again… just like for the Apple corporatization… too niche to bother with? If both for-profit Apple and FOSS Wine are in agreement here on that point, then I don’t really see the meme as much of a humorous joke. But maybe I’m just too unfunny to get it:-D.
What does Wine have to do with anything…? Wine is an implementation of Windows ABI and APIs, it has nothing to do with Linux’s ability to run 32 bit executables on 64 bit machines. AMD64 CPUs can run x86 instructions. 32 bit executables run natively on Linux, no emulation or VM required. Old (pre arm) versions of MacBooks have hardware that can run 32 bit instructions, but the OS simply doesn’t let you run 32 bit executables anymore without jumping through hoops.
A lot of your comment here makes no sense, tbh it reads like you’ve reached the limit of your understanding. And no we shouldn’t be “making fun of” the Wine team getting paid basically nothing for making an amazing product. Wtf?
@qqq@OpenStars before wow64 introduction, wine required 32 bit process and multilib to run 32 bit code, requiring 32 bit opengl/bulkan implementations
But it is possible to run 32 bit code in 64 bit process.
Wine in wow64 mode enforces 64 bit process to use only lower 32 bits address space and thunks 64 bit libraries via wine nt syscall interface to loaded 32 bit PE binaries. No multilib or even 32 bit process support required, 32 bit instructions executed as is. Also this allows using machine code translation layers (like fexemu) exposing native calls with same syscall interface.
wow64 maybe still limitted because it does not allow calling native libraries directly and increases overhead. win32 TLS code is using same fs segment register as linux 64bit TLS and workarounds may have bigger overhead, than using multilib
Defending the truth seems worthwhile to me. Even if for a mega corporation. There are valid criticisms to be used… but this is not one of them. We can do better!
I’m pretty sure the meme is factually correct: you can’t run 32 bit applications on current versions of macOS. Unless something has changed recently that I don’t know of. Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps? I have a vague memory of my partner not being able to use an “old” version of an app and also not being able to update it so they simply couldn’t use it. That could be on the app developer though. Both of those a relevant to “old apps”.
If the meme is referring only to arm64 then eh I guess it’s a bit of a stretch but whatever, it’s a meme.
I agree there are many more, and much more annoying, criticisms though.
Meanwhile i got an 1988 japanase source code to compile and work on windows 11 without any problem. I can even send it if you want to see. It was written by prof emeritus Haruhiko Okamura in 1988.
Neat, that says a lot about the programmer too, although Windows is famous for bending over backwards for backwards compatibility.
Yes, he is a legendary programmer, one of the most skilled and respected computer science professors in Japan. He wrote this software which is a cli compression tool in pure C
I haven’t used iOS in 10 years, but I do recall that even on older Android devices, Netflix wants you to keep closer to the current version (oddly enough, even for a 1st or 2nd gen Chromecast?). So I think not technically, although I don’t know the current status, but even so, yeah, but same as Android too. Ofc, at some point the device gets so old that Apple won’t let you update it any longer, so that’s one way to get it to stop updating:-P.
In researching this a bit more, I confirm that 64-bit Mac not running 32-bit programs is a valid criticism. However, my original point stands: what Linux system can also allow you to do similarly? Especially across a different chip set - like why expect a 64-bit Mac M-something to run a 32-bit game compiled for Windows using a x86 architecture, without needing to install something else to specifically handle that transition? Here is an example of someone doing the same with Ubuntu, needing to first install multiple libraries before it will “just work”.
Even so, there are multiple ways to make this procedure work on a Mac. Other than dual booting with an older copy of a 32-bit OS, emulators can work at near native speeds. Granted, it’s not as convenient as Wine (I would guess?), and won’t be until someone puts in the effort to make a 64-bit version of Wine (which does exist) that will natively support 32-bit programs, again compiled for a different OS (Windows) and chip architecture (x86). It only won’t work until… you know, it does.
Which it already does, using the likes of either Parallels or VMWare Fusion, which yeah requires the complexity of downloading an additional program and setting up a VM environment.
On the other hand, notice how according to this meme, there are zero problems with Linux, like EVER. In comparison, having to download an extra program, due to an event that happened all of once in the last 20 years of computing, and even that was 6 years ago now… apparently that’s “too much work”? How did this meme creator (which seems not OP according to other comments here) figure out how to join a Lemmy - wouldn’t having to pick an instance first likewise be too much to handle?! 😜
I kid, but this kind of tribal thinking (“in-group good, out-group bad”) doesn’t help anything, imho.
Hmm the type of thinking that implies Linux users only say bad things about Apple because they don’t know what they’re talking about? :)
You can 100% run 32 bit binaries on Linux systems so the answer is all of them. The need for libraries isn’t the same as the complete inability to do so, any program with dependencies of course needs them and they of course have to be compatible. Hell with
binfmt_miscyou can even run arm32/aarch64 binaries, but that’s not fair I guess since it’ll be transparent qemu emulation, although still pretty cool.Also my view of this meme isn’t that it’s implying that there are no issues, just that it doesn’t force things on you or stop you from doing things which is generally true.
Where did I say “Linux users”? Or for that matter, “only”? We were discussing the OP meme, not extrapolating beyond that to stereotype all Linux users. I mean… I use Linux, so why would I stereotype myself like that as well!?:-P
Also where did “complete inability to do so” come from? You can use emulation software such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion, or you could dual-boot into a 32-bit OS. So there’s 3 ways to accomplish the task. Granted, none as easy as if the Wine FOSS had decided to implement the task by itself, but just because they choose not to does not mean that any of those other 3 approaches will not work (bc they will).
Though yeah, I could see your last point. Tim Cook’s Apple making that business decision to switch from Intel x86 to the M-series chips and then not provide a Rosetta internal emulation system definitely can earn that for-profit corporation some negative thoughts, in comparison to FOSS. Then again, it sorta makes sense to me bc it’s a very niche case, to emulate old 32-bit x86 Windows programs on a 64-bit M-series modern Mac. They decided that the cost wasn’t worth it to them, when Parallels and VMWare Fusion already can handle the situation. So following that logic, shouldn’t we similarly be making fun of Wine, for also not stepping up to fill this gap? And all the more so bc it’s not a greedy for-profit megamaniacal corporation, but supposed to be there to provide for people’s needs, free of cost? I wonder what the logic behind that was? Perhaps that Steam exists now, so the need for such is again… just like for the Apple corporatization… too niche to bother with? If both for-profit Apple and FOSS Wine are in agreement here on that point, then I don’t really see the meme as much of a humorous joke. But maybe I’m just too unfunny to get it:-D.
What does Wine have to do with anything…? Wine is an implementation of Windows ABI and APIs, it has nothing to do with Linux’s ability to run 32 bit executables on 64 bit machines. AMD64 CPUs can run x86 instructions. 32 bit executables run natively on Linux, no emulation or VM required. Old (pre arm) versions of MacBooks have hardware that can run 32 bit instructions, but the OS simply doesn’t let you run 32 bit executables anymore without jumping through hoops.
A lot of your comment here makes no sense, tbh it reads like you’ve reached the limit of your understanding. And no we shouldn’t be “making fun of” the Wine team getting paid basically nothing for making an amazing product. Wtf?
@qqq @OpenStars before wow64 introduction, wine required 32 bit process and multilib to run 32 bit code, requiring 32 bit opengl/bulkan implementations
But it is possible to run 32 bit code in 64 bit process.
Wine in wow64 mode enforces 64 bit process to use only lower 32 bits address space and thunks 64 bit libraries via wine nt syscall interface to loaded 32 bit PE binaries. No multilib or even 32 bit process support required, 32 bit instructions executed as is. Also this allows using machine code translation layers (like fexemu) exposing native calls with same syscall interface.
wow64 maybe still limitted because it does not allow calling native libraries directly and increases overhead. win32 TLS code is using same fs segment register as linux 64bit TLS and workarounds may have bigger overhead, than using multilib