If you were Panamanian I don’t think you’d have much trouble calling the men who came and killed innocent civilians in 1989 a murderer. That being the case, can you say objectively that this person isn’t a murderer or at least took part in mass murder?
We can criticize the American government for its actions. And you can criticize the actions of individual soldiers when they provably have committed crimes. But making the generalization fallacy to say “Some people committed crimes, therefor all of them did”, with no further scrutiny shows a massive gap in critical thought
And it’s different from saying something like “ACAB” because police (especially police unions) KNOW about abuses, personally and still chose to cover it up. Meaning, they have witnessed or know of corrupt actions and still protect their own or make excuses for it. More importantly, police enjoy special power and privileges in their local communities and so it’s in their self interest to perpetuate and cover the abuses.
Yes I can objectively say that he was involved in mass murder. Could you please explain how the killing of hundreds of civilians, unprovoked and without warning, doesn’t constitute murder? Judged as a “flagrant violation of international law” by the UN, Bush disgustingly claimed that Panama had declared a state of war against the US, even though what really happened is that Panama declared that US had already invoked war against Panama through psychological and military harrassment (which was accurate). And then sent thousands of soldiers to invade and ultimately kill innocent civilians.
I’m not saying this individual chose to personally kill these people. But was he involved? By his own admission, yes.
I’m not saying this individual chose to personally kill these people. But was he involved?
So… by your own admission, you can’t “objectively” say he did those things… you’re speculating and assuming.
You originally claimed it as though it was an objective fact that he, personally, was a murderer… and now you’ve edited and moved the goal posts to “took part in” and then you moved it back further with “involved”. What’s next? “Associated with”? “Served with”?
None of this is “objective”, by definition. A definition in which you keep changing. So, we’re done, you’re wrong and I’m not arguing with a bad faith zealot who keeps weaseling their words to justify their illogical contempt.
Being a combat veteran of multiple engagements within a foreign nation almost certainly means he committed or attempted pre-meditated, intentional, cold-blooded homicide. The word for that is murder. Having state sanction doesn’t make it not murder. The things you do still reflect on you.
You know, at first I didn’t agree with you, then I read your post again and thought I agree, then I thought some more and went back and forth before finally deciding to not engage.
However, please stop seeing things in black and white and having arguments over it. Increased polarisation and ‘us vs them’ mentality in society can only lead to more violence.
There are some hard bright lines and murder is one of them. It’s one that I’ve been dismayed many progressive have in recent times decided they could overlook, if the right people suffer, if the right ends are advanced through the means of a human life. Please stop trying to obscure this line.
I’m not saying murder is fine. I just can’t agree that your generalization is true. There are many different ways to end up in armed forces and be forced to kill other people.
If a person has been in that situation, we can’t just assign them into a “murderer” group and try to placate them for everything that is going wrong. That is how we got to the current far-right ‘conservative’ support rise in almost every country. Instead, we should approach those people and try to educate them on how they were wronged by the current state of affairs. Then, together, we have a chance to make things better.
I’m pretty sure that if you ask, 99% of veterans won’t tell you that they enjoyed murdering people or think that that is ok. Usually they become very sad and/or exhibit PTSD symptoms.
more relevant, the overwhelming majority of veterans are in non combat roles. Like overwhelmingly so. Most military jobs are for things like technicians, mechanics, electricians, IT, healthcare, admin, etc etc etc etc. Like, every Navy vessel you see… 95% of the people there just keep the boat afloat and systems operating. They’re not even involved in the weapons systems, and the ones that are are not personally gunning down civilians in the streets…
So to flippantly regard all military and veterans as “murderers” is insane.
It shocks me that even in a progressive place like this, Americans still think that murder isn’t murder when a soldier does it. Like the Baby Jesus blesses everything a soldier does for their Holy America and makes it magically righteous and not even a little bit murdery.
I can see how you might think that. for the Americans, he is a hero. for the people he fought against and killed, he is not a hero. the families of the people still cherish their loved ones and either side either fought or died for each country.
at least they deported an actual murderer this time, instead of just hard working immigrants.
ffs… being a veteran doesn’t make someone a murder… fucking .ml brainrots.
If you were Panamanian I don’t think you’d have much trouble calling the men who came and killed innocent civilians in 1989 a murderer. That being the case, can you say objectively that this person isn’t a murderer or at least took part in mass murder?
can you objectively say that he is?
We can criticize the American government for its actions. And you can criticize the actions of individual soldiers when they provably have committed crimes. But making the generalization fallacy to say “Some people committed crimes, therefor all of them did”, with no further scrutiny shows a massive gap in critical thought
And it’s different from saying something like “ACAB” because police (especially police unions) KNOW about abuses, personally and still chose to cover it up. Meaning, they have witnessed or know of corrupt actions and still protect their own or make excuses for it. More importantly, police enjoy special power and privileges in their local communities and so it’s in their self interest to perpetuate and cover the abuses.
Yes I can objectively say that he was involved in mass murder. Could you please explain how the killing of hundreds of civilians, unprovoked and without warning, doesn’t constitute murder? Judged as a “flagrant violation of international law” by the UN, Bush disgustingly claimed that Panama had declared a state of war against the US, even though what really happened is that Panama declared that US had already invoked war against Panama through psychological and military harrassment (which was accurate). And then sent thousands of soldiers to invade and ultimately kill innocent civilians.
I’m not saying this individual chose to personally kill these people. But was he involved? By his own admission, yes.
So… by your own admission, you can’t “objectively” say he did those things… you’re speculating and assuming.
You originally claimed it as though it was an objective fact that he, personally, was a murderer… and now you’ve edited and moved the goal posts to “took part in” and then you moved it back further with “involved”. What’s next? “Associated with”? “Served with”?
None of this is “objective”, by definition. A definition in which you keep changing. So, we’re done, you’re wrong and I’m not arguing with a bad faith zealot who keeps weaseling their words to justify their illogical contempt.
I originally claimed that he is a “murderer or at least took part in mass murder.” I have not edited or moved the goalposts. Please read closer :-)
edit: nice to see that Lemmings are simping for the US military’s illegal invasions though!
True, they also raped a lot of people.
Being a combat veteran of multiple engagements within a foreign nation almost certainly means he committed or attempted pre-meditated, intentional, cold-blooded homicide. The word for that is murder. Having state sanction doesn’t make it not murder. The things you do still reflect on you.
You know, at first I didn’t agree with you, then I read your post again and thought I agree, then I thought some more and went back and forth before finally deciding to not engage.
However, please stop seeing things in black and white and having arguments over it. Increased polarisation and ‘us vs them’ mentality in society can only lead to more violence.
There are some hard bright lines and murder is one of them. It’s one that I’ve been dismayed many progressive have in recent times decided they could overlook, if the right people suffer, if the right ends are advanced through the means of a human life. Please stop trying to obscure this line.
I’m not saying murder is fine. I just can’t agree that your generalization is true. There are many different ways to end up in armed forces and be forced to kill other people.
If a person has been in that situation, we can’t just assign them into a “murderer” group and try to placate them for everything that is going wrong. That is how we got to the current far-right ‘conservative’ support rise in almost every country. Instead, we should approach those people and try to educate them on how they were wronged by the current state of affairs. Then, together, we have a chance to make things better.
I’m pretty sure that if you ask, 99% of veterans won’t tell you that they enjoyed murdering people or think that that is ok. Usually they become very sad and/or exhibit PTSD symptoms.
more relevant, the overwhelming majority of veterans are in non combat roles. Like overwhelmingly so. Most military jobs are for things like technicians, mechanics, electricians, IT, healthcare, admin, etc etc etc etc. Like, every Navy vessel you see… 95% of the people there just keep the boat afloat and systems operating. They’re not even involved in the weapons systems, and the ones that are are not personally gunning down civilians in the streets…
So to flippantly regard all military and veterans as “murderers” is insane.
It shocks me that even in a progressive place like this, Americans still think that murder isn’t murder when a soldier does it. Like the Baby Jesus blesses everything a soldier does for their Holy America and makes it magically righteous and not even a little bit murdery.
I can see how you might think that. for the Americans, he is a hero. for the people he fought against and killed, he is not a hero. the families of the people still cherish their loved ones and either side either fought or died for each country.