Hi, do we have other German speakers in here? I’m currently working on the German translation for the PieFed user interface. I’d like to have a discussion on gender neutrality in the German PieFed translation.
The current form
Right now it uses the male form. I think it’s desirable to make it neutral. To quote rimu:
I prefer gender neutral. It’s 2025 now, not 1950.
The challenges
It’s difficult to translate UIs to gender neutral German because it creates long words that might not fit on buttons etc. and some of the forms aren’t well suited for screen readers, hence worsen accessibility. But I think we can do it, we just have to find the best form that’s shortest, neutral and clear.
Some words aren’t translated in the context of Lemmy/PieFed. e.g. Community would be Gemeinschaft in German, but we keep it English to avoid confusion. So we have the option of not translating individual words.
The options
Let’s use the word Users as an example. I’ll try to list all possible options. If I’m missing any, feel free to add them in the comments.
- Benutzer (male form) ❌
- current form, not neutral
- Benutzerinnen (female form) ❌
- not neutral
- BenutzerInnen (neutral) ❌
- bad for screen readers, long
- Benutzer*innen (neutral) ⚠️
- okay for screen readers, long
- Benutzer:innen (neutral) ❌
- bad for screen readers, long
- Benutzer_innen (neutral) ⚠️
- not widely used, don’t know about screen readers, long
- Benutzende / Nutzende (neutral) ✅
- recommendation of geschicktgendern.de
- Benutzys / Nutzys (neutral) ✅
- not widely used, more about this form
- User (not neutral when used in German) ❌
- according to dict.cc User is a correct german plural form of the english word Users
- but it isn’t neutral when used in German
This is where I’m stuck. Nutzende is my preferred plural form. But I haven’t found a fitting singular form for it. There is more, but I’m just using this as an example of the challenges.
What we should try to achieve
- Find the best gender neutral form and apply it to the German PieFed translation
- Represent this form in the glossary as a standard for the German PieFed translation to guide translators
Feel free to leave a comment here or join the translation chat to discuss things further.
A bit tangiental but most of the time it is better to talk about accounts and not users.
(Only IT professionals and drug dealers talk about “users”).
“Members” can also be an alternative, and gender neutral in a few languages
PieFeeders?
We should clarify when we say “user” and when “account”.
My take is: while “users” refer to the humans who use PieFed, accounts are the entity used to authorize users. Users cannot be banned technically, but accounts can.
- all strings about authentication, blocking and privileges, etc. should talk about accounts, not users
- there’s nothing but user accounts, so drop the “user” in and keep just “accounts”
- because users never use their real name, we shouldn’t talk about user names but about “account names” or “identifiers”
- “account” is independent from it’s user’s name, gender and most further traits
- other subjects are problematic, too: “Moderator added”, “Replier blocked”, “Block author”, “Number of known subscribers”, “Manually aprove followers”
Options:
- we could generalize the User/Account differentiation for all problematic subjects: “Mod account added”, “Replying account blocked”, “Number of known suscribing accounts”, “Manually aprove following accounts”
- “account” repeats a lot, maybe that’s an opportunity for finding a rephrasing that is unique for PieFed? “Fedi”?
- we can drop the subject where possible and instead focus on the passive predicate: “Moderation reinforced”, “Source of reply blocked”, “Number of known subscriptions”, “Manually aprove follows”
- to avoid military tone, maybe use more humorous exaggerations?
- how can we maintain a friendly, close sound while attempting these linguist acrobats?
- Talk to “you” where ever possible.
- Mention “your peers” or “your equals” more often.
- Benutzer, Benutzende, Nutzende, Nutzys, Mitglieder, Leute, ~Meine Kerle~
- Don’t risk too much. Normies are welcome, too.
- How about an additional language next to de_DE: de_Gendered
This is where I’m stuck. Nutzende is my preferred plural form. But I haven’t found a fitting singular form for it. There is more, but I’m just using this as an example of the challenges.
Yeah, there is no singular neutral form of Nutzende.
Which strings are you trying to translate?
There are 1792 strings in total. I don’t know how many of them contain male gendered forms, but I came across enough of them, which lead to my post here.
Usual problem: you never get the context of those strings. Depending on where they’re used it might make more sense to use a different word.
I don’t know what you mean exactly. It’s all open source. The context is in the files and in the Web UI. I’m not talking about individual words, we should try to reach a standard that is good for everyone.
User: Nutzende, singular would be Nutzer*in
Also, please don’t call it “germanizing”, you make it sound like Nazi-speech. It’s “translating to German”.
We’ve stopped trying to “germanise the world” and things like that decades ago, lol
Oh, that wasn’t my intention, sorry. But it’s different than translating. I mean taking the english word and using parts of it unchanged, and adding german to it. e.g. “die Userin”.
That’s still translating. Even when translating, there might be words that are best kept in their original language for clarity.
We also speak of CDs in German, not KS (Kompaktscheiben), as people would not understand what that is. Nor do we have Drahtloses LokalBereichsNetzwerk (DLBN… WLAN)… at least I’ve never come across that. :p
You’re right. I’ve edited the post and replaced it with “when used in German”
KS (Kompaktscheiben) … Drahtloses LokalBereichsNetzwerk (DLBN)
That sounds like something !ich_iel@feddit.org would love :)
Isn’t that “anglicization”?
Uh, difficult. I really dislike those circumscriptions into passive form or with adjectives. My own opinion is, we have direct nouns for a reason. So I’d prefer “Nutzer:innen” over “Nutzende” and all the other options. And furthermore, since when are Germans opposed to long words? 😆 But this is just one opinion from one random person (me).
Maybe think of upcoming difficulties like “user settings”. Should that be “Benutzendeneinstellungen”, “Einstellungen des Nutzenden”, “Nutzer:inneneinstellungen”…? I think our language doesn’t offer any good option except the generic masculine form… Which isn’t gender-neutral…
I do like long words :) But in the context of UI’s a word like Nutzer:innen needs much more space than Users. Put 4 buttons with long words side by side and you got a layout problem. That’s why I’m trying to find translations that are similar in length.
I’ve edited my previous comment, there’s usually more issues once we have things like “user management panel”, or “user settings”, which aren’t great either.
Yeah, I get how short strings are to be preferred. I mean the shortest one is generic masculine. I’ll stick with my previous opinion. But I guess “Nutzende” is okay if it’s plural… Seems we currently try to avoid it anyway. It says “Profil”, “Konto”, “Leute”… I guess the few occurences of “Benutzer” could be “Leute” as well. Just the “Verwalter” in the main menu is one prominent unnecessary masculine. Should be a form of “Admin” in Denglisch.
I don’t think I have a strong opinion on this. Just avoid Nutzys. I think that’d be a good option, but sounds weird to average people.
I feel like at least for central navigation elements like single word buttons, forms like “benutzys” are not so suitable. Because there will already be a usability trade-offs in using less established terms. People will understand a bit less clearly what is going on and how to navigate things. So things like “Nutzende” which can still be derived from the more commonly used gendered terms by using the regular rules of language will be much more legible and provide less of a riddle than a term like “nutzy” which basically invents new grammar. (in general I do actually like the “invent new grammar” approach to gender neutral language because I think it’s the most thorough and elegant approach overall. But it can also be a bit much/hard to comprehend if you’re not familiar).
Fully agree. I personally like the Benutzy form aka. Entgendern nach Phettberg the most. But I don’t see it being used by the general public.





