• Rylo@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    As someone who have spent quite some time in the upper echelons of society I can confidently say MOST are very high on liberalism, i.e. ignorant, uninformed, idealist. It is not that they think there is another point or are scheming for some kind of endgame (yea obv, the Palantir CEO might be, but if we are talking everyday elites), it is simply VERY easy to go through your whole life as a liberal if you never are exposed to the contradictions and contrasts of global capitalism (and when you do get exposed, it is nicely wrapped by your media)

    If you are born with relative privilege and work hard, make good money, etc and just go about with your life, it is very easy to just…not think about these things. And whenever you might stray away and think a bit more deeply you have a plethora of “political analyists” or other media telling you how you should think about it to feel good about yourself (and superior to many others).

    These are the kind of people we need to reach, educate and get on our side. And since October 2023 a less “lib-rotted” conscious has started to form in this group, even if it is tiny, tiny, tiny.

  • eldavi@lemmy.ml
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    2 days ago

    no one is driving this car so there is no destination in mind; it’s just a bunch of groups competing & colluding against/with each other just to make a buck while the car is still moving.

  • Nadie_AZ@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    Lots of good comments here. Another thing to keep in mind is the system essentially pushes people in this direction. Capitalists have to continue to try to gain market share and gain profit. As such, the system rewards people who are the greediest and with the least amount of empathy for others and willing to do whatever it takes to get and stay ‘on top’. Even if some capitalists realize that we are heading for ruin, they won’t dare to try to push to change things. The system will not allow it.

  • Ilikecats@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    They want power and control and they want to maintain that power and control so they can feel superior

  • the rizzler@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    of course the answer is there is no endgame because capital is incapable of thinking past the next earnings call

  • burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml
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    3 days ago

    This is what Marx described as the commodity fetishism. This essentially describes what capitalism really is.

    • Tubby6945@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 days ago

      Could you go a little into the details of how commodity fetishism connects to climate destruction for the less well-read of us?

      • zedcell@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        Commodity Fetishism is the idea that under capitalism (at least) the understanding of where and how commodities are produced is severed. We relate to commodities not as things that have a certain quantifiable amount of labour time embodied in them (that someone in South America spent some time mining this ore that was then processed by a facility in Mexico that was then shipped by a team of people at a dock to China where it was further processed by another team of people into a component part of a computer chip for example), but instead as ‘fetishes’, magical idols that simply appear before us that we want for their use-value, but do not think about why it costs what it costs to purchase.

        Its link to the climate crisis is that if we’re overwhelmingly severed from where and how our various commodities we consume to live a nice life are produced (in the global North especially), then we’re less likely to get upset, panic or fight-back for the fact that this bit of fruit or that phone took the rape and destruction of some town in Africa or Central America, and that the workers who had a hand in producing those things get paid pennies on the dollar of what it cost us. If we can continue life just consuming commodities without worry or care, then we can walk straight into a climate crisis orchestrated by the capitalist class. The class who are making the active decision to destroy the planet in pursuit of profit, and the active decision to ruin and crush the working classes of the Global South in particular.

        EDIT: I should be a little more explicit in my original point on Commodity Fetishism too. I intimated it via the example I gave, but more than just not understanding a commodity as a embodiment of a given amount of labour time, Marx talks about the commodity as a collection of social relations that are obscured under capitalism.

      • burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        Given other people tried to explain as well, I’ll try to do this more succinctly. We are in a market society, right? We sell our work, and the companies we work for sell commodities (or commoditized services). Then with the money we buy commodities that satisfy our wants, right? (Basically, the C-M-C circuit in the Capital). Our social relations in our current society are of buyers and sellers. When we buy stuff or when other people buy stuff, we are actually maintaining a social relation with other people, which don’t happen directly, but happen by the intermediation of commodities. Here we see an inversion, an interaction between people become an interaction between things.

        However capitalism requires accumulation (increasing capital). They need to do so, in order to develop their own capital. The capital exists not only to satisfy more of the capitalist wants, but to increase the constant part of capital (automation, processes, machinery). They need this because the competitive nature of the market drives them to outcompete other capitalists in the same sector, or to compete against new developing sectors in the capitalist economy that intend to make them obsolete (think about Google developing their own models and integrating it in its own search bar, to fight the influence of ChatGPT replacing Google search; or streaming services like Netflix battling against cable-tv providers in the past). But in this competition and capital accumulation process, there’s another inversion. Capital dictates the capitalists. They end up in this never ending number maxing game because competition drives them towards it.

        So that’s what commodity fetishism is about. The things we produce dictate our relationships. And capital dictates the course of production and distribution, not our own free will. In other words, the freedom that pro-capitalism supporters advocate for is actually their own prison. And they are so immersed in the process that they don’t even realize it.

        So, with our deteriorating environment, our society is so dominated by this logic of capital accumulation that it’s even affecting our reproduction as society. We are not producing things to satisfy our needs, we are producing because capitalism dictates us to do so. So we don’t even care that we destroy the very things that make our very life sustainable. Capital becomes an end on itself.

      • darkernations@lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        Could you go a little into the details of how commodity fetishism connects to climate destruction for the less well-read of us?

        Commodity fetishism is about masking the relation between people (for example between the producer and the one that owns the producer’s labour) with the product and thinking the worth of a product is from the object itself. It may lead to hoarding of wealth but that’s an effect of the above relationship.

        Climate change is because the above relationship is self produced through the concentration of profit to buy more labour-power, so the external costs such as the negative effects of carbon dioxide production does not have sufficient negative feedback within the short term into the above relationship ie the relationship continues despite the ill effect it may have long term on the labourer (as a class).

        Takeaway: everytime you see a problem assigned to an “object” (tangible or not), try to unmask the relationship between classes of people that object embodies.

      • Maeve @lemmygrad.ml
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        2 days ago

        No one thinks about it. Consumption can be an addiction, like sex, drugs, alcohol, chemically engineered not-food, scrolling, exercise, TV. And Westerners are addicted to consuming, like people get addicted to banging dope.

        I met a lovely person who has several children and a spouse , cooks whole food to manage allergies and other tricky medical conditions, works full time, often with a two-hour commute, gets up before 4:00 to get to the gym and buys stuff. Expensive stuff, so it lasts, stuff for the kids, stuff to cook, stuff to clean, vehicles because with that kind of a commute and kids medical. I don’t know what all else, I’ve met them once, while doing an errand.

  • SlayGuevara@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    Spent the last few days running around Manchester learning about Marx and Engels and the poverty they witnessed during their time here and it got me thinking the same. What’s the goal? Going back to a life like that? Surely that can’t be good for their bottom line either, right?

    • demeritum@lemmygrad.ml
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      2 days ago

      Their goal is an AI run utopia of endless line go up where they hole themselves up in their latifundia.