I’m running into a bit of a wall after joining my local socialist org. Right now It’s feeling like “Philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point, however, is to argue endlessly about minutiae, seek purity, and take no meaningful action.”

I started by picking a group consistent with my beliefs at the time, but as I’ve read more and improved my political education (which has been one of the better things about the group) my political beliefs have naturally evolved, to the point where they are incompatible with some of the group taboos.

Right now I’m self-censoring to an extent. I like working with and trust many of my comrades, but I can’t bite my tongue forever. What got me finally engaged in socialist organizing and out of the soc dem world was wanting to build from a base I found morally consistent, but now I’m questioning if that tendency can lead to an infinite sequence of group hopping and disillusionment.

One impulse I have is to join a group with which I have more consistent beliefs, but I recognize that I am a moving target and that I’ll likely not have perfect alignment with any party platform. Worse, it seems in my city the groups won’t collaborate due to perceived slights, bad takes, or even ‘this is a small city’ personal issues. I suspect this is a similar story in many cities.

We’re told we can’t work with the other group because they’re too impatient or not patient enough, too tactical or too idealist, too cliquey or too open, too ‘Stalinist’ or too ‘Ultra-left’. Collaborations with potential comrades who believe deeply in revolution and share your views are non-starters because they violate taboos of the sect. (Taboos made well before I was conceived, and I’m older than most!) And of course, you must understand the way things transpired sometime in the 19th and 20th century and have great animosity for false interpretation or you’re being ahistorical.

I would willingly work with anti-capitalist leftists of wide affiliation. Yet, I also recognize that loose coalitions around single-issue focuses and flash-in-the-pan moments will lead to dead ends without a political thrust and momentum.

All of this leads to inaction, dispersion of resources, and dithering. It is a huge distraction. Not to mention, potential comrades are turned away after witch-finding interviews, for underdeveloped or ‘incompatible’ political opinions. Within the group, it encourages a lack of critical thinking and open discussion, as a room of diverse, passionate thinkers shut their mouths rather than speak on issues where there is potential misalignment with party ideology.

For those of you who have been in the struggle for a long-time, what advice do you have? Where can my thinking be sharpened? Who has written about this well? Are there better ways or is this a rule of the game we have to accept?

  • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Ultimately, you have to follow some of the advice from Mao’s Little Red Book. You should publicly criticize this tendency during meetings if it is your opinion, and bring it up when it is relevant. Do this until they either kick you out, change their minds, or decide to leave to pursue better options.

    This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t also pursue rigorous political education within the party, but an expectation of correct political knowledge outside of the party or even full agreement without internal debate is a nonsensical, idealist position.

  • jack [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    What is your current political orientation, would you say? How would you identify yourself? Lots of useful discussion in here about big ideas, but I’d like to do the practical work of helping you find the right group to join.

  • TheoryofChange [they/them]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    The refusal to collaborate with other groups is at best a deeply unserious tendency and at worst red flag of a manipulative and controlling group. My most important piece of advice is to weigh what a group actually does and how it operates more heavily than what they say they believe (though the later is still important) when deciding how to interface with said group. Navigating this stuff is really tricky and the best path forward is seldom obvious or easy meow-hug

    • mr_sunburn [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      2 days ago

      weigh what a group actually does and how it operates more heavily than what they say they believe (though the later is still important) when deciding how to interface with said group

      I quite like that principle, thanks!

  • DornerStan@lemmygrad.ml
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    2 days ago

    I’d rather be in an org I don’t fully agree with that does good praxis and is willing to coordinate with other orgs, than one that aligns with my beliefs but does neither of those things.

    In two different occasions, that meant working more with a DSA chapter, Pro-Palestine group, or a broad anti-war group, than the nominally Marxist orgs in the area (trots so I guess theoretical alignment with me was tenuous lol).

    Of course if you can find an org that better aligns with your principles, by all means join it.

    Speaking out internally is a respectable option but in particularly toxic orgs may not be worth the risk. If you leave, ideally try to leave amicably so you might be able to build bridges between this org’s members and whatever org you join after. And since, as you say, your ideology is still developing, probably best to be diplomatic, not add more noise to inter- or intra-org hostility.

    • mr_sunburn [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      2 days ago

      The struggle seems a bit difficult when one is evolving their views. If I had the luck of finding a party I agreed with the platform in totality with today, since I’m on an education and development path (read: ignorant, naive), I’ll be guaranteed to be out of sync tomorrow.

      Plus, how do party platforms get set? Through argumentation and interaction one would hope! They can’t be static dogma from on high. At the same time I’m not expecting them to oscillate their years-long views for my months-long perspective.

      • Cowbee [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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        2 days ago

        We all regularly evolve our views, but if you’re changing your views totally on a month-by-month basis then you might need to focus more on your basic principles. This is even more critical if your views are evolving so much on a daily basis.

  • Renin [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    I’m also struggling with organizing and I’m just gonna be honest that I am the problem. I am not built to withstand the pressure, of what would happen, if I did what I am supposed to - openly criticize the whole group precisely where I think they’re mismanaging and then see what the response is, it’s entirely possible there’s something I am missing and my idea is bad.

    That doesn’t mean I have to give up. I know I am not built to be a leader, but it doesn’t mean there is nothing I can do. I try to help in ways that i can and maybe there’s eventually going to be a group that can absorb me, the more the Imperial power dwindles, the higher the chance there is going to be a group that shows up.

    It’s so easy to fall into the trap of great man theory, when you’re surrounded by Imperialist Culture. Even someone like Fidel Castro is just a human being and spent most of his life on boring, mundanely frustrating, absolutely irritating tasks.

    Everybody is born with different set of cards and we shouldn’t judge people based on the number, it’s how they chose to use what they were dealt.

  • Salah [ey/em]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Instead of a socialist organisation I joined a local community organisation that organises on broader topics. I try to involve all of the relevant leftist orgs in everything I do, because I strongly believe we need all of us to work together in order to win, and that many of the orgs can learn a lot from each other. We have sectarianism here, but I try my best to instil some charity towards other orgs with the people I talk with. Some dislike between orgs is based on rumours that have a little bit of truth in them, others are just red scare propaganda. I have my personal faves but all of the local orgs here have their mayor flaws and qualities.

  • RiotDoll [she/her, she/her]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    The ego is the enemy of progress.

    There are people for whom their benevolence towards their fellow humans is contingent on them being at the center of things, or them being placated. It’s grody, but pretty normal. Most people aren’t aware of what they’re doing. The ones who are, and still do this crap, are enemies. I hope that goes without saying.

    But the honest truth is that the egoic self is usually a toxic hellpit, and a person with a modicum of power and no self awareness of the workings of their own ego can have the best intentions in the world, but will be pulled along by the need to be right, to be in charge, to be acknowledged as exceptional, or somehow set apart - the maintenance of the perception those things are happening becomes more important than the ostensible reason they’ve got voice and power in a given org.

    The fix is education, and I hate to say it but the kind of education necessary will probably cause socialist nostrils to flare, just because it would involve meditation and “spiritual” work that has empirically observed effects on the mind - No woo woo shit, but the inability to manage the ego is probably the biggest thing that holds orgs back.

    Sorry. I’m dealing with my own right now, so the problem is perceived as brighter/louder in the external world than it usually is for me.

    Behind every asshole that wasn’t an intentional wrecker, whose bullshit ended up stymieing or killed a project/org, is almost certainly an unhealed ego

    If you have ego tyrants infesting an org, sometimes it’s best to just bypass them or go elsewhere. You’re not gonna be able to therapy them into healing, you just need to take their power, and if you can set your ego aside and tap the right shoulders, you can probably get on with Doing Stuff as if the tyrant isn’t there

    • mr_sunburn [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.netOP
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      2 days ago

      This was quite a useful comment. And also gave me pause to make sure I apply the same ego-check to myself to an extent.

      For example, am I railing against something because the honeymoon phase is over and I can see its imperfections? Might my critiques of the org be a maneuver to preserve my ‘special’ status in something I am a beginner at? Might my actions be seeking a way out of domination by the more experienced?

  • Athena5898 [any]@hexbear.net
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    2 days ago

    Your issue is inaction mostly. Every group left of “its bad to hunt homeless for sport” has a inaction problem. And when they normally finally do anything its just getting people to make noise in places they can be ignored.

    When I made a local group. Its entire purpose was action. And people from a wide spectrum have flocked to it.

    You might consider doing something similar?

    “I don’t have people skills” etc.

    Neither do I honestly. I grew up completely isolated with parents who were hermits with a fox news dad. However, if your intentions are good people will show up eventually. And then you can “to each their ability” to the people persons who inevitability show up. (Bless them truly)

    You don’t nor shouldn’t start to big. See a need in your area that you can work on and rally like minded people towards. Hell maybe you can get your nerds (affectionate) to get in on this and create a action section to what already exists. Can be as simple as cleaning up a river or making a meal.

    Then when you get enough people you can start working on bigger and bigger projects.

    China wasn’t built in a day. You gotta start somewhere. And it helps with mental health and the feeling of powerlessness even when you are doing the small stuff.

  • starkillerfish [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    3 days ago

    there are a lot of orgs which are not sects. based on what you are saying, it seems like you might want to find some other org to join? one that is more based in practice? it takes a while to find an org you want to be a part of, its not a taboo :)