What I find depressing is that most of the Arab world thinks so, but the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Arab world: https://i.imgflip.com/41f829.jpg
It clearly shows that Arabs don’t care about fellow Palestinians suffering, and the only thing that matters is that they fucked up lives of some Jews.
Arabs aren’t one people. They’re many different tribes. They’ve been fighting as long as the historical record. So them not caring about the Palestinians is not surprising but obvious.
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the majority of people from Gaza don’t.
Last poll I saw shows the majority of Gazans approve of Oct 7:
57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-palestinians-opinion-poll-wartime-views-a0baade915619cd070b5393844bc4514Has public opinion in Gaza shifted since then?
Yeah I’m curious how much help all these Arab countries were sending to the Palestinians.
I thought Arab countries were the only ones sending aid to Palestinians - ignoring the US which of course is playing both sides
All arabs remember Jordan September 1970 so nobody trusts the Palestinians one bit and rather prefer they die against the Israeli than their own citizens. They got expelled to Lebanon after Jordan and sparked civil war there for decades and then finally getting expelled in 1991.
So if you wonder why the neighbouring Arab countries don’t care. There’s your answer.
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Nobody hates Palestinians more than other Arabs. This was never about them, it was always about hate for Israel.
I dunno, maybe the people genociding them hate them more.
No, arabs bad.
Made me laugh. Thanks
Usually, yeah.
Stop spreading misinformation.
Recall that it was the US who had to twist Egypt’s arm into accepting refugees. Black September was a thing, and it resulted in several Arab countries refusing to take Palestinian refugees.
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
The Muslim extremists are a problem for everyone, and they make life much harder for Palestinians.
Does that mean they hate Palestinians, or just refugees in general?
It seems like the cultures of, checks notes, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Qatar are not built around helping those less-fortunate.
No idea about the other two but I’m pretty sure this doesn’t apply to Egypt.
Charity is one of the main pillars of Islam. Saudi Arabia even has (had?) what was basically a Universal Basic Income for its citizens: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen's_Account_Program_(Saudi_Arabia)
I’m not agreeing with any overarching point, I’m just not sure they’re as bad as you think with regards to helping their own countrymen. Though maybe that generosity begins and ends with its citizens.
What percentage of people living in Saudi Arabia are allowed to be citizens?
~55% I think.
The rest might as well be dirt.
K
Mass slavery doesn’t sound very charitable.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees. Both those things are bad, but one is at least a bit worse.
Oh don’t get me wrong, the blame is backwards. It lies primarily with Israel for killing them. It’s fucked up, albeit less so, for these other countries to refuse to take in the refugees.
Handy for Israel to get to exterminate them within their own borders and everyone else is to blame because they won’t take them as refugees.
I don’t think they said or even implied that
It’s important that we discuss this. Hamas and other extremist groups take advantage of the kindness that is offered to Palestinians, and they cause civil wars and assassinations. If I remember right, they murdered the king of Jordan.
Yeah I won’t deny that these things are all pretty messed up, but the claim that Arabs hate Palestinians is just wrong, at least from what I’ve seen as an Egyptian. Also I don’t see how Hamas, which was founded in the mid-80s in a completely different political climate, has anything to do with this. The PLO, which isn’t even Islamist, is the one who did these things.
Generalities are rarely true, I should’ve specified. I agree that the statement “Arabs hate Palestinians” is more wrong than it is right. And there are certainly differences between the PLO and Hamas and other militant groups.
It would be more correct to say that violent militants are using the Palestinians’ plight to take advantage of the kindness of Arab neighbors and then try to take over their societies. And naturally, that has made neighboring countries reticent to take in refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
What is wrong however is seeing a terrorist attack against Israeli civilians as legitimate resistance when they themselves will not take in Palestinian refugees.
Unfortunately many Arab people do consider all Jewish Israeli civilians as active participants in Israel’s crimes, but that’s a whole different story. The serious argument that October 7th was legitimate resistance relies on the fact that it was against military targets, with no evidence the leadership ordered anything close to slaughter of civilians. Add in that even after the IDF shelled and shot their own citizens the civilian casualty rate was 66% and the idea that Hamas just passed the border and randomly murdered civilians falls apart pretty quickly. Of course not denying the atrocities that actually happened, but October 7th as a whole was legitimate resistance with an army that’s prone to committing war crimes, not a terror attack with the goal of murdering civilians. This distinction is important because “atrocities were committed on October 7th” and “October 7th was a terror attack” aren’t equivalent statements.
I might not be up to date on the latest understanding of the days events. Do you know a good source where I could go read up on it?
There’s no one source that’ll cover everything, but since most of us have a general idea of what Hamas did (and that’s mostly what you’ll get if you look up October 7th) here’s a few examples/evidence of the IDF killing their citizens on October 7th.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/759856/Israel-s-IDF-ordered-to-prevent-Hamas-from-returning-to-Gaza
(contains the Hebrew article and a translation in the comments).
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It’s unfortunate that we can’t just lock up all the extremists into one room and let them solve the problem for us.
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Bingo
Considering how the Arab world at large never agreed with the terms of Israel’s conquest, this makes sense.
In the 40s and 50s they all agreed on kicking those same Jews out of their counties, though.
And attacking Israel at the same time but still all losing so bad that Israel actually gained land.
It does seem like some anime shit
Pretty sure jews around the world never agree with the war that was brought to them the moment country was formed.
How the fuck did you even interview them? The governments of many Arab countries in this survey would kidnap and jail you indefinitely without trail if you support Palestine in public or on social media, and many other cave in to what they are expected to say. It’s garbage in garbage out
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A new opinion poll, carried out by the Arab Center for Research and Policy Studies, was published on January 10
It’s a Qatari institution with clear bias. Just because it has “Arab” in the name doesn’t mean it represents all arabs. There are many institutions in the middle east with “arab” in the title, they don’t represent us all.
Just a reminder that Aljazeera is a Qatari state owned channels, and Qatar represented Palestine in the opening for Asia’s cup just yesterday.
But yea… good journalism.
The 8000 respondents, from 16 different countries,
8000 respondents, given that they’re a fair sample size from each arab-majority country (which I doubt) do not represent what 464 million arabs think.
That’s 0.0001724138% of the population.
your comment shows us you don’t know how polls are made
why not look it up first and only then comment (if relevant)
You definitely haven’t taken stats.
Just like the polls done by those who “know stats” who predicted a clinton win in 2016.
Whilst it’s quite amazing just how few people you need in your sample to get a +/- 3% error with a 95% confidence for the opinion of hundreds of millions, that narrow error margin with just a few thousand samples only works if the sample is representative of the population in general, which is unclear.
Plenty of cases of polls out there that are complete total bollocks because they were taken by calling by phone people in relativelly poor countries were only those in the middle class and above have a phone, and at times when most people were out working, so they ended up sampling an atypical subset of people rather than one representative of the whole society.
The way the question is posed also influences the results, sometimes quite subtly (the mere order or words or order of questions in multiple-question poll can sway the results).
So whilst what you said makes sense in response to the previous commenter’s point, there’s a lot more to good polling than merelly the number of samples necessary for a certain error margin in the 95% confidence interval when your sampling is random in a uniform distribution (emphasys on the later, as actually making sure the sampling is indeed like that in practice is often difficult and/or costly)
Polls…how do they work?
Maybe include that it is a poll of “~5700 arabs by Qatari institutions” in the title, not “67% of arabs”.
Misleading title. Sorry to see individuals like you on Lemmy rather than Reddit.
How is the really of an opinion poll painting them as a monolith? It’s literally saying they have different opinions.
This doesn’t seem any different from polling Western countries and writing a title about what the Western world thinks. Doesn’t make me think of a monolith.
In that case, I’m sure you’d have an issue with a publication writing “99% of Europeans think Hitler was bad”, despite it being a bunch of different nations.
Or, is it “eh white is white” for you?
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Why on earth do we accept J Post articles here? It’s literally Israeli propaganda.
I’ll remember that next time I see an al Jazeera post
Im not sure I mentioned al Jazeera at all. Random that you brought it up
Their point is that those claims are made in both directions.
I suspect their point was baseless whataboutism pointed at something I never said or implied to try and (in their minds) undermine my point.
If you want to ban one news outlet that you are imagining is state propaganda, why not ban the other state propaganda with a clear biased agenda?
Where did I say I did or did not want to ban Al Jazerra?
I didnt mention it at all.
Thats why its so bad faith.
You’re right, you’re certainly arguing in bad faith. It’s okay, the rest of us understand where you stand, and why your propaganda isn’t any better than the Qatari ran lies.
Not really. Israeli outlets literally just make up lies and repeat known false propaganda. Aljazeera is just one sided reporting
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arab-center-research-policy-studies-174700630.html
Happy? Or do you have a narrative to spin about this one, too?
To me, the crazy thing is that 33% of the Arab world doesn’t think it was legitimate resistance.
The October 7th attack was clearly terrorism. But to have such a big percentage of the Arab world seem to agree with that, even in such an insanely one-sided situation as the ongoing occupation of Gaza, means:
A lot of people want peace.
Everyone wants peace for themselves and their allies. What’s important is how many people want peace for the other guy too.
Well, but what I’m saying is that (edit:
calling it terrorism) saying it wasn’t legitimate is kind of wanting peace for the other guy too.I’d be surprised if 33% of Americans or Israelis thought that the invasion of Gaza was illegitimate. Maybe they would though, I honestly don’t know.
It’s all terrorism, all the way down. Israel throws a volley, then Hamas throws a volley, and so on. It’s depressing.
Palestinians want to live peace with each other. Israelis are the ones that want to go full Nazi and exterminate all Palestinians because they believe they are the Ubermensch.
The west bank being terrorized by ZioNazis is all the proof one needs.
You shouldn’t take the actions of genocidal, colonizing settlers and generalize them to all Israelis. It’s completely incorrect to suggest that all Israelis want to exterminate the Palestinians. As small as they are, there are left wing groups that want to find reconciliation and cooperation. And plenty of youth have refused their compulsory service with the IDF.
It also makes no sense for the Israelis to think they’re superior to the Palestinians – only half of Israelis trace their ancestry from European Jews. The other half have the same ancestry as the Palestinians. They’re all semites.
You’re far too eager to condemn people by association, who may very well have the same beliefs as you. These are the same logical fallacies that lead to ubermensch beliefs in the first place.
As small as they are, there are left wing groups that want to find reconciliation and cooperation. And plenty of youth have refused their compulsory service with the IDF.
I highly respect people such as Gideon Levy and other speaking out against the atrocities and refusing military service. If all israelis were like that then this conflict would already be over. But most israelis are currently voting right wing governments in power. Most israelis even support the current genocide.
There were even people killed by Hamas that were peace activists. Which is incredibly sad. But the fact remains that all those good people are completely outnumbered and despite their peaceful activism israel has moved more and more towards full on Nazism the last few year.
It also makes no sense for the Israelis to think they’re superior to the Palestinians – only half of Israelis trace their ancestry from European Jews. The other half have the same ancestry as the Palestinians. They’re all semites.
They believe Palestinians are Arabs not Semites.
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I’m not disputing any of that. I’m just saying we shouldn’t tar Levy and the others with the same brush. And like you said, the people being killed by Hamas are not just the genocide supporters.
Think about how this conflict is going to end. When we look at the most likely outcomes:
-
Status quo continues, and just kicks the can back down the road until one of the other outcomes
-
Israeli completely genocides Palestinians and colonizes Gaza and West Bank on their bodies. Some survive as refugees, but most of them die. Hamas is mostly destroyed, but its rich leaders in the UAE and similar countries drink champagne and live it up just fine.
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Enough Israelis vote for a left wing regime that seeks reconciliation, and recognizes they have to move past the history of violence for it to end.
Odds are, Israel is not going to be destroyed or ended. The best chance of peace relies on the Israelis who understand the power dynamic places the impetus on them to stop the violence. To that end, it’s unhelpful to blanket label all Israelis as genocide supporters. Because if that’s true, Palestine has no hope.
How were the Nazi’s stopped? Did we kill every single German in existence?
Are the Ukranians trying to slaughter every single Russian to stop the invasion?
israel will never end its genocide voluntarily. If an israeli isn’t supporting Zionism and speak out they are getting arrested. There’s no way to get any political change going in a regime this dictatorial.
Palestinians are very open to negotiation, but israel is the party holding all the power, and refuses to give the Palestinians a land. The 700.000 in the west bank prove how willing israel is to seek peace.
There is only one side preventing peace, and it’s israel. Their illegal government must be disbanded, but it doesn’t look like they are going to do it voluntarily.
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I think it is interesting how many people think there will ever be peace while Hamas is in charge, or that Hamas will ever let someone else be in charge.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
On the first part, I agree; both Likud and Hamas are hell-bent on this outcome. If only the one of them would stop giving the other money to keep them both going.
Nobody in power ever “lets” someone else have it instead.
Peaceful transition of power is a cornerstone of democracies
I actually hesitated to write what I wrote for that exact reason… but I decided that there’s enough implied threat of everyone else just removing you anyway and you looking stupid and maybe going to prison that you can’t actually call it “voluntary.” Trump tried his absolute very best to simply refuse to go along with the peaceful transition of power and he still got power-transitioned out.
I’m not necessarily disagreeing with you; I do think a lot of the theater of concession speeches and other trappings that go with peaceful transitions in countries far from Palestine is super important. But I think Trump actually did a pretty good job (so far, fingers crossed) at illustrating that it’s not really voluntary for the departing president to agree to leave.
No doubt about that. minus some bad details .
When you’re defending beheading children as “legitimate resistance” when you should probably take a step back and take a long hard look at yourself.
And no, before idiots come along and say dumb shit… That doesn’t mean I’m defending Israel’s actions either. It’s possible to dislike both situations.
There’s no evidence Hamas beheaded children. IIRC that was a rumor originating from the IDF which remains unsubstantiated.
If they had any proof of “Beheading children” they would have submitted to the International Court of Justice. but they didn’t, they haven’t even dared use that sentence. but here your are parroting your Zionist Hasbara Lies and defending a genocidal agenda that have been in the working for over a century
Oh look, the idiots saying dumb shit have turned up …
I know right, the rest of us would rather you guys go home.
Show me 40 decapitated babies and I will start believing the IDF
This is Zionist propganda.
No beheaded children nor rapes happened.
Only some Thai migrant men that got mutilated after they were already shot dead.
resistance? Its intention was to open the doors for Israel and so it did.
What do you mean? The fascist islamist terrorists of Hamas wanted Israel to retaliate? For what reason? I think you give them too much credit, they just took an opportunity to kill as many as they could.
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@roastedDeflator @world I can only find it in Arabic. dohainstitute.org/ar/Lists/ACR…
@roastedDeflator @world My Arabic is not up to translating the whole thing, but some headline figures from my quick skim.
59% of Arabs are following the news about Gaza daily
54% following it mainly by satellite TV, 36% by social media
84% feeling psychological pressure because of the war
67% think the Hamas attack on 7/10/2023 was a legitimate resistance operation
67% think Hamas is totally unlike ISIS
69% stand in solidarity with Gaza and Hamas
Whoever agree with the “legitimate resistance” legitimates everything in this website:
NSFW WARNING: The website contains violent content. Viewer discretion is advised.
I don’t think you want to play the game of who can show who did worse things.
It is Israel, 100%.
Israel has killed 20 times that number and leveled whole families and neighborhoods slaughtering tons of innocent children.
You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
57% sounds empirical and they even have cool little charts to go with it. Best case scenario it was: you got someone who doesn’t want to talk to you to talk to you for five minutes, or you set the stage for a talkative bastard to talkative bastard at you until you can break free. Neither are particularly good windows into their actual thoughts about Thing X but furthermore all the responses usually total like 0.000028% of the population.
You know polls are utterly unscientific tea-leaf reading right?
Lmao
Maths is unscientific now
E: To any downvoters: you are stupid.
Polling is just maths, and is very reliable so long as it’s done reasonably.
By all means have reservations of this poll specifically, but to call polls in general or as a concept “unscientific tea leaf reading” is foolish. Disagreeing with that mathematical fact is exactly the same as disagreeing that 5 + 5 = 10.
Calling social studies math is an insult to math.
Polling is mathematical…
Faked polls are forces of nature now?
When did I mention faked polls? You’re just making up shit now.
You’re either a troll or stupid if you don’t think polling is mathematics.
Russia polled in villages that they captured that Ukrainians actually want to be annexed by Russia. Can’t argue with math right?
Good strawman. I never said that polls can’t have a selection bias.
I said thinking polls in general or polls as a concept are tea leaf reading is stupid. Because it is. If you believe that, you’re a moron. You may as well say you disagree with the concept that 5 + 5 is 10.
Ah yes, an israeli Zionist propaganda outlet posting Zionist propaganda from a known Zionist lemming. Must be very obective
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The al-Aqsa Mosque has been a source of tension as it is located above the Temple Mount, a holy site for both Jews and Christians.
While non-Muslims now have permission to attend their holy site via the Moors Gate, they are forbidden from praying there which has created increased tension.
Palestinians, before October 7, had been permitted to enter Israel with proper documentation for work, medical treatments or for other reasons.
When asked about the responses of regional and international powers to the war, 94% said they considered the United States position negatively, with 82% clarifying they thought it was bad.
The same trend continued for other Western countries with 79%, 78%, and 75% of respondents viewed the positions of France, the UK, and Germany negatively.
In a different survey response, 81% said that they did not believe the US was serious about establishing a Palestinian state and 77% of respondents named the US and Israel as the biggest threat to the security and stability of the region.
The original article contains 666 words, the summary contains 168 words. Saved 75%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
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If intentionally raping and killing civilians is “legitimate resistance” I feel sorry for this world.
If you’re ignoring all the raping and killing by the IDF prior to 10/6, I’m sure this all seems inexplicable.
Because you’re literally choosing to ignore why it happens.
Like that old meme of someone putting a stick into the wheel of their own bike then asking why it happened to them after the crash.
Citation? My understanding is Israel has prosecuted the few incidents when their soldiers did such a thing, and it certainly is not policy or commonplace.
Took two seconds of Google…
First result is less than a week old
If you’re gonna say one isn’t enough, ,you should have asked for a specific amount to start with.
But maybe if you ask nice and still don’t know how to work a search engine I’ll find you another.
There are decades of news similar to this :-/
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ctrl-f “rape” zero hits. So, not an example of IDF raping and killing. In fact this article is about settlers committing violence, which the police and IDF are now investigating. Did you bother to read it or just linked the first google hit blindly?
I said:
If you’re ignoring all the raping and killing by the IDF prior to 10/6, I’m sure this all seems inexplicable.
Because you’re literally choosing to ignore why it happens.
Like that old meme of someone putting a stick into the wheel of their own bike then asking why it happened to them after the crash.
You said:
Context?
So I just had to guess what you wanted
If you were specifically asking for context of rape by IDF, why didn’t you ask for that?
To me it feels like you were being intentionally vague so no matter what I provided context for, you could claim that’s not what you meant.
So maybe next time, if you want specific information, ask for it specifically?
Dude, you and rapidcreek were the ones who set the goalposts to, “raping and killing,” not me. I asked for an example of what you specifically referred to and implied happened regularly before 10/6. Instead you provided an example of killing by someone other than the IDF. You failed to satisfy your own claims. Now you’re blaming me because asking for proof of your own specific claims wasn’t specific enough!
Wild.
I mean it’s doing more damage to Israel than a century of peace could, so I don’t think “stupid” applies. Whether it was right to do it when the response would predictably be like this is another story, but due to October 7th support for Israel is now more controversial than ever before.
Hamas and PIJ deliberately targeted civilians and committed atrocities. There is no part of those actions that can even remotely be colored as legitimate. It was attempted genocide as the intent was the destruction of all Israelis living near the border and sparking a war to end the existence of Israel.
I don’t think anyone is defending the actual killing of civilians. The idea is that the civilians who died (including by Israeli hands, by the way, can’t forget that), were incidental and had no basis in leadership orders. AFAIK the plan was go attack Israeli bases and soldiers, take hostages, return to the strip, but since Hamas isn’t exactly a properly trained modern army (I mean those also commit warcrimes and we don’t blame it on leadership unless provable) and Israel just shelled and shot their own citizens the numbers got this bad.
Their attacks on military bases were legitimate, but attacking civilian populations was not and should never be tolerated. Even if you want to say that the settlers are not civilians (at least it has some logic, unlike israel’s excuses), they killed indiscriminately, including tens of children.
I don’t think anyone is defending the actual killing of civilians. The idea is that the civilians who died (including by Israeli hands, by the way, can’t forget that), were incidental and had no basis in leadership orders. AFAIK the plan was go attack Israeli bases and soldiers, take hostages, return to the strip, but since Hamas isn’t exactly a properly trained modern army and Israel just shelled and shot their own citizens the numbers got this bad.
