• AlteredEgo@lemmy.mlBanned from community
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    1 年前

    To be a bit more seriously, I’m not from the US but I’d be very careful. The MAGA movement might very well start rounding up trans people and whoever else they don’t like. Something like a “Kristallnacht”. They absolutely could turn the US into a fascist dictatorship. I hate the neoliberals too but from a tactical viewpoint you really should vote for Biden.

        • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          The U.S. is already a fascist dictatorship. It just has the luxury to have multiple parties of fascists. If trans people were to be rounded up, neither party would be interested in doing anything to stop it. We know this because literal children are regularly sent to privatized behavioral or conversion therapy camps that are essentially prisons, and neither party is very invested in shutting those down. So fuck off with your moralizing. Biden isn’t strategic, nor is he vegetables, he’s just a different brand of pop.

          • Vncredleader@hexbear.net
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            1 年前

            Yeah calling a man who is enabling a genocide “vegetables” is the most depraved infantilizing thing. How many dead Palestinians are needed for a healthy democracy meal exactly? That shit is pure evil

          • YourMom [he/him]@hexbear.netOP
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            1 年前

            Hey now, the democrats would absolutely use it as a way to fundraise and get elected. And then… sit on their hands and do half measures because the republicans are so mean and actually control everything! Ahh Lisa Slotkin voted with the fascists but you need to vote for her so the evil republicans don’t control the senate! Oh wow, we don’t have the senate, we just need more money and votes so we can undo all the damage!

        • TraumaDumpling@hexbear.net
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          1 年前
          CW to protect innocent comrades from ire entirely directed at the above poster

          literally kill yourself, comparing voting for a genocide-enabling, child-caging, wall-building, nazi-arming, abortion-banning rapist who is/was pen pals with Arch-Racist Strom Thurmond to ‘eating your vegetables’ is probably the most disgusting take i have ever witnessed, even from a natoid in the Great Satan. I will gladly eat any ban for saying this, please kill yourself and kill everyone around you, as many as you can, as soon as you possibly can, for the good of the world. If you understood anything about history, geopolitics, or the basics of logical thinking, you would understand the rage i am feeling right now. I wish you and your loved ones a very disembowelment. Happy Valentine’s Day.

        • TheDialectic [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          When the government starts treating us white people like they have always treated black people I will take comfort in knowing you and I are on the same rotting ship.

    • hamid@startrek.website
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      1 年前

      The US is currently a fascist dictatorship. Both parties in the US function as a single unit uniparty. Don’t forget they repealed abortion rights under a democrat. The US legislator (Congress) is corrupted and captured and their supreme court is not different from Iran with religious fundamentalists that have lifetime appointments with power to review any case law. It literally doesn’t matter. The Kristallnacht is coming and no voting will stop it, just like voting never stopped the German Nazi’s. Is idea here to just have the Democrats win every election forever?

        • hamid@startrek.website
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          1 年前

          Fascists don’t like capitalism because it’s too egalitarian

          ahahahahahahhahahah

          aaaaahhahahahahahahahahahahzahahahahahaahahah

          aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahhaahah moron

            • sammer510 [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              1 年前

              I suggest you literally read anything. You haven’t even read easy stuff like Blackshirts and Reds if you really believe that fascists don’t like capitalism.

                • ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 年前

                  Fascism is capitalism’s last line of defense against the threat of revolution. While fascist do manage the economy somewhat differently than liberals they absolutely AREN’T against capitalism.

                • sammer510 [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 年前

                  “They took our jobs” isn’t opposition to capitalism it is knee jerk reactionary sentiment. No one who says that actually subscribes to anti capitalist ideology.

                  You need to go back and read Blackshirts and Reds and learn about how fascism ultimately serves the interests of capital. You clearly lack the knowledge and ideological framework to understand this issue.

                • Vncredleader@hexbear.net
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                  1 年前

                  That’s not opposing capitalism, that’s opposing globalization. Also that is the outcry fascists sometimes capitalize from, not a policy. Look at how the fascists went from parroting that right wing populist line, to empowering corporations. Mottos are not ideologies, corporatism is WAY more vital to fascism than complaining about immigrants taking jobs

                  • AlteredEgo@lemmy.mlBanned from community
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                    1 年前

                    Shane Burley says it better than I did @DoiDoi@hexbear.net @ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml @TreadOnMe@hexbear.net @QueerCommie@hexbear.net :

                    A Third Way
                    Over the last two decades, the contemporary left has often confused the definition of fascism, especially in discussions about the increasingly authoritarian nature of institutions propping up neoliberal capitalism. While it would be wrong to say that fascism, as a general rule, is purely anti-capitalist, it does implicitly critique capitalism as a free-market system. Capitalism may rely on the latent bigotry and social inequality in a society, but it also disrespects national boundaries, tribal allegiances, and non-economic hierarchies. What this means is that, while the left critiques capitalism for its inability to deliver broad equality, the far-right critiques it for not being explicitly racialized and unequal enough. Capitalism benefits merchants who broaden their customer base rather than privileging a specific group, and increasingly globalized trade breaks down national boundaries and benefits an international ruling class. Neoliberalism steamrolls regional diversity and cultural differences in the same way that it destroys individuality and personal expression, as a monster that goes after what makes us human.

                    Fascism is an attempt to answer the unfinished equation of capitalism, and, instead of challenging the inequalities manifested through this economic system, it hardens them.

                    This matters in terms of political (or revolutionary) strategy. We are in a three way fight between neoliberal capitalism, fascism and socialism. The question then is what can be done to pit those two against each other and not cooperate against socialism.

                    As capitalism leads to globalization and worse and worse material conditions, fascism is a narrative that still works to maintain concentration of economic power. It promises (and lies) to make shit great again. And while those concentrations of economic power fundamentally don’t care about ideology, many people in positions of power do find the aesthetics of fascism unappealing on an aesthetic level. That can be tapped into.

                    Even just from a strategic perspective: Divide and conquer.

                    So the critique of Jon Steward of this farce is absolutely important but just as important is the prevention of the worst case outcome. Even if you believe that fascism is the inevitable outcome sooner or later, personally I believe later is better because it allows more groups of people time to prepare.

                • DoiDoi [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 年前

                  Please read actual historians and / or theory like the already mentioned Blackshirts and reds. Fascism is definitionally capitalism in decay and the capitalist’s violent protection of the remnants against any emerging threats. To suggest that fascists are not capitalists is completely ludicrous.

            • CyborgMarx [any, any]@hexbear.net
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              1 年前

              The entire point of fascism is class collaboration/subordination for the benefit of the capital owners, to suppress labor and stabilize falling profit rates

              It’s precisely the reason Hitler was backed to the hilt by German industrialists

              Brain-dead liberals have always confused certain protectionist measures used by fascist regimes as “anti-capitalist” because many of them have been completely blinkered by the exploded neoclassical conception of capital accumulation, while they ignore the unprecedented privatization campaigns of every fascist regime

              Liberals are forced to believe in a fantasy version of capitalism and then stare in disbelief when the fascists turn out to be more efficient capitalists than they ever were

        • Vncredleader@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          Fascists absolutely want classes based on money. Fascism was devised as the union of labor and capital. Mussolini and the Syndicalists wanted to use national identity to “resolve” class contradictions, not make classes into national identities.

        • TechnoUnionTypeBeat [he/him, they/them]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          fascism

          egalitarian

          Fascism is an ideology that is practically defined by a constant search for an Other, an outgroup, an underclass it can use as scapegoat. It is literally in a perpetual state of eating its own tail

          Genuinely one of the most baffling things I’ve seen a Lemmyite post here

        • Zuzak [fae/faer, she/her]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          Even allowing the distinction, the Democrats fuel fascism by funding far right Republican candidates and fear-mongering over immigrants, China, etc. Capitalists will typically side with fascism to defeat socialism because it allows (most of) them to maintain their status. And fear-mongering about foreigners gives them a scapegoat and distracts from domestic problems, while justifying the corrupt military-industrial complex which allows transferring public funds into private hands. The Democrats are 100% fascist enablers.

        • CannotSleep420@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 年前

          fascism = a belief in inequality based on an mythological and essentialized identity

          Wrong.

          Fascism is open terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinistic and most imperialist elements of finance capital.

    • Hi

      Several US states basically have trans laws that amount to rounding up trans people already, these laws passing within the last year or two

      Who’s the current sitting president again? What party does he represent?

        • Vncredleader@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          Never have I seen someone let Hindenburg off so easily. So what you are saying is you should vote to oppose fascism…so that the institution can then let them into power anyways? Hindenburg WON and he still put Hitler in power. So why vote Biden exactly?

            • Gay_Tomato [they/them, it/its]@hexbear.net
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              1 年前

              You don’t get to pretend Biden isn’t Hindenburg because you said so.

              Hindenburg WON and he still put Hitler in power. So why vote Biden exactly?

              Answer the question you were asked Ego.

                • queermunist she/her@lemmy.ml
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                  1 年前

                  Biden is literally doing genocide. This isn’t a choice between fascism and liberalism, it’s just respectable fascism and vulgar fascism.

                • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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                  1 年前

                  No you absolute schmuck. We are not Hindenburg because WE HAVE NO POWER in this system. Like all liberals you are completely allergic to context, which means that while you babble on your mind-numbing cliches like the chat-gpt stooge you probably are, history happens regardless.

                  • Vncredleader@hexbear.net
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                    1 年前

                    They need history to be understood through metaphor, because further understanding of processes, and learning WHY history happened the way it did, not just THAT it happened or HOW it happened would destroy their worldview. The KPD only exists for this dolts if they want to cry that commies wouldn’t work with the people who sicced police on them at every turn, otherwise they cease to exist and opposition to Hitler was just Hindenburg.

                    Get better historical examples, or better yet, learn the damn example first instead of working backwards.

        • Gay_Tomato [they/them, it/its]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          My sibling in christ if you let a fascist come to power you are not “well meaning”. The fact that you would even say something so silly implies that facisism is as unthreating to you as it was to them. In your failed attempt to defend voting for liberals to “prevent fascism” you explained exactly why voting for liberals will do nothing to prevent fascism just like it failed in Germany.

            • farting_weedman [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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              1 年前

              Hindenburg put Hitler up as a choice for chancellor and then appointed him chancellor.

              That’s a little different than what you’re suggesting.

              Throughout the history of the Weimar Republic there are many examples of presidents using their emergency powers in big ways.

              I think saying that president is a figurehead position with no real power is pretty indefensible. We have well documented examples of presidents wielding lots of power and the specific one we’re talking about famously used his political power to put Hitler next in line.

              It’s doubly damning that you’ve brought this up as a defense of voting for Biden when one extremely shallow but nonetheless true reading of the events after Hindenburgs election is “don’t elect senile politicians to office if you want to defeat fascism!”

                  • AlteredEgo@lemmy.mlBanned from community
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                    1 年前

                    I’d say that is a false analogy, but Goebbels. Because he doesn’t have Trump’s “je ne sais quoi”. Trump is a type of idiot savant.

                    But for the record, the only morally correct solution to the trolley problem is to murder the experimenter. And if you don’t have that option, you refuse to participate. But this isn’t about 1 vs 5 lives, this is about much worse. And Biden and Trump are are not the same.

    • ExotiqueMatter@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 年前

      What make you think that the party who is already rounding up ethnic minorities in camps as we speak would do anything against the Republicans rounding up LGBTQ+ peoples in camps?

    • ☭ Comrade Pup Ivy 🇨🇺@lemmygrad.ml
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      1 年前

      I am in the US and this is how can show you, the Republicans will make things worse as fast as they can while they are in power, while the dems will slow down to a much slower pace, but will do nothing to make anything better, they also will not stop anything bad from happening, they just will not activly do anything evil or terrible. A trans friend of mine put it this way, the Dems get you to vote for them by putting a gun to your head and saying they are your only choice.

      It gets worse once you find out that the Dems are some of the biggest donners to the far right congresional canidates, because they think they are easier to beat.

      At the end of the day the only REAL difference between the 2 is rhetoric, and maybe 2 years max, and I think I am being genorous by saying that we can get 2 years more out of the dems. Both votes will lead to the same facist hell hole, its just what can of paint I want, and how I want it to happen

      • AlteredEgo@lemmy.mlBanned from community
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        1 年前

        It gets worse once you find out that the Dems are some of the biggest donners to the far right congresional canidates, because they think they are easier to beat.

        Interesting, I wasn’t aware of this. It seems to be purely a political strategy that apparently paid off. But also seems incredibly dangerous.

        The best strategy seems to be to delay. Trump is unlikely to make it to 2028 as a viable force. Hopefully some of the senile democrats will be gone too. If everything is going downhill it’s not a bad idea to slow down.

        • TreadOnMe [none/use name]@hexbear.net
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          1 年前

          If you aren’t aware then shut the fuck up. The Democrats are more unhinged than they’ve ever been because even the incredibly milque-toast socdem alternative was beaten with a stick and then paraded around on an apology tour. The train has no brakes, stop telling us that if we change the conductor it will matter.

        • chickentendrils [any, comrade/them]@hexbear.netBanned
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          1 年前

          The Dem’s “pied piper” strategy is responsible for Trump’s first term. Yeah, sure it “paid off” by ratcheting up the extremism from that party’s candidates at every level every cycle, while the empire collapses, guaranteeing they’ll eventually ascend to power over us…

        • ☭ Comrade Pup Ivy 🇨🇺@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 年前

          Trump is not the only issue, when trump dies there will be some other facist to take his place. and while I see your point, and understand where you are coming from, where I am sitting, the “delay” path is not a significant delay, as I said I see 2 years, and the question I have to ask myself is “Can we develop significant class contiousness or change within the 2 years to make a difrence” and from what I am seeing the answer is no, So my next question is, can I reward the Dems for there reckless behavior, and I also do not know if I can, they are coercing my vote, by the exclusive fact the other side is SO BAD, dispite the fact that materialy they are not much better. Matters get worse when you take into accound that a study out of prinston shows that my vote, or the outcome of all the votes and the want of all americans, does not effect the direction of the country, OR the fact that even though Biden is, almost certanly going to win the majority of the votes cast on election day thanks to the electoral collage it is going to be incredably close.

          So really we dont have a harm reduction canidate, we dont have a lesser evil canidate (who may I point out means you are still voting for evil), there is no choice to make, assuming you are picking one of the 2 big ones that is a moral choice. There is no tactical choice, as I had said earlier, the only real difrence between them is retoric. Biden sounds nicer, he is not, but he sounds it.

    • chickentendrils [any, comrade/them]@hexbear.netBanned
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      1 年前

      Hey, we can apply longtermism too (and it won’t even be that long, maybe a few decades) and say “That’s unfortunately pretty likely no matter the timeline or specifically who gets elected when.” Maybe if it happens in 2025-6 instead of 2045-6 there’ll be less people around to genocide, and we might get a resolution to it quicker.

      The US is certain to become a blatantly authoritarian state down the road, it is completely unsustainable and dependent on militarily destroying other places to launder money to its ruling class, then extracting surplus value from those places in the aftermath. It’s currently a heavily obfuscated fascist state, at least to most observers just struggling to get by under its propaganda and the arcane systems it and its collaborators have created.