Womp womp indeed.

I’m not sure what you are even talking about anymore. You are operating on layers of assumptions that makes communication very hard. Would you mind backing it up and trying again?

Much appreciated for the tutorial. I will try to use that going forward. Once again, take your time. I will be here.

Appreciate the reply. I should really learn how to do the quote thing your doing so my reply can be more accurately interpreted.

Anyways, I want to focus on your question. The obvious answer is communism, socialism, ect. A concept alot of people don’t understand is that Marxist theory does not see capitalism as this evil thing that has invaded our lives, but as a natural progression of human economic development. Marx says that the formation of a communist society must first progress through capitalism and industrialization as the benefits of those systems set the stage that makes communism even feasible.

The part that gets people confused is that outside of theory and in real life, never has a industrialized capitalist society progressed to communism. Instead all attempts were pre industrial feudal or near feudal revolutions who attempted to leap frog over capitalism straight to industrial communism.

This history has resulted in many many different forms of communist thought. Maoist, leninists, trotskyist, stalinists, and so on. But we are not talking about those. I want to hard focus in on Marxism as just a foundational idea, because holy shit you have no clue how influential Marx was to like, our understanding of sociology and economics.

That is all to say, I do not have a silver bullet answer for you on “which system” and “what exactly that looks like”. There’s a lot of different possibilities, and as we get increasingly into late stage capitalism, our ideas about communism change to meet the world we know. Marx didn’t know what a fucking Uber eats was ya know lol.

The best answer I have for you is to genuinely and with an open mind free of pre considered notions (as best you can for that impossible task) try and read The Communist Manifesto. I guarantee it’s not the book you think it is.

However please also temper expectations. It’s a foundational text. Talking about some base concepts. It will not hand you a silver bullet but Instead will just fill you with the feeling that we can do better than what we currently are. I am going to put a quote from disco Elysium, wonderful game, in here about the feeling of understanding this and what it can do to you.

“0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin. All he has managed to do is make himself sad. He is starting to suspect Kras Mazov (game stand in for Karl Marx) fucked him over personally with his socio-economic theory. It has, however, made him into a very, very smart boy with something like a university degree in Truth. Instead of building Communism, he now builds a precise model of this grotesque, duplicitous world.”

While I think a lot of people need therapists, I don’t think he is being narcissistic.

It’s unfortunately just very natural for false consciousness to be very isolating and resistant to outside interference. He is acting in the way that the culture and ideologies of his life have trained him to act when confronted with a foundational challenge.

I appreciate the video and advice. You are right, it does make people instantly defensive. I actually never really watched Mr Rodgers as a kid. My dad thought PBS was communist propaganda lol. So I will try to learn from this best I can. Thank you.

Buddy, pal, friend. The quote isn’t “first they came for the liberal”. It’s “first they came for the communist”

Deconstruction is what got me out of that ideological mind prison. I would recommend it.

True. The intersection between patriarchy and capitalism creates these expectations and equally makes them unachievable for most people.

Feminism as an ideology attempts to tackle and deconstruct both of these, freeing us from those unachievable expectations.

I’ve been getting a lot of use outta this quote today from bell hooks.

“It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term “feminism,” to focus on the fact that to be “feminist” in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression”

There’s no easy way to tell someone on the Internet that they are wrong without sounding patronizing. All I can say is that I genuinely want to try and explain something to you that you clearly do not understand. I would like you to understand. I would like for us to be able to talk about this topic. I mean this with love and sincerity. That’s the best I can do.

Patriarchy and capitalism go hand in hand. We are still saying the same thing. You do not know what those words mean. You take it as patronizing because it would be silly for you to not know what that word means.

Except it’s not silly. It’s extremely common. That’s why there’s a whole academic theory about it. False consciousness. It’s a very hard thing to break yourself out of. It’s kinda like alcoholic rehab. The first step is admitting you are in it and beginning to deconstruct it.

Our entire society is built in reinforcing these false consciousness. It is very very difficult to break them. As I said in another thread to you. I hope this is a seed of words and ideas that hopefully someone who speaks your language better will water and sprout into understanding.

I’m sorry that this is all sounding patronizing and elitist and whatever else that makes you feel small. I genuinely do. Please take everything I have said how I intended it. With love and hope and empathy and understanding.

Look. We are talking in circles. So let me leave you off with a quote from one of the most famous feminist writers, Bell Hooks.

It is obvious that many women have appropriated feminism to serve their own ends, especially those white women who have been at the forefront of the movement; but rather than resigning myself to this appropriation I choose to re-appropriate the term ‘feminism’, to focus on the fact that to be ‘feminist’ in any authentic sense of the term is to want for all people, female and male, liberation from sexist role patterns, domination, and oppression. – Ain’t I A Woman: Black Women and Feminism, 1981

Like I said. You are stuck in a mind loop called a false consciousness. I was unable to break you out of it this conversation. I hope that this conversation is a seed in your brain that someday, someone else more able to speak your language waters and sprouts into understanding.

Please understand. You are not talking about “women”. You are talking about patriarchy. You are complaining about patriarchy. You are complaining about women who are also stuck in the same patriarchy false consciousness as you are, but from the other side. Your talk about women and greed is a complex intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. They effect each other and support each other.

I genuinely hope you take that extra step towards understanding and abandon your misogynist lens. It is doing more harm to you than you know.

That’s not what I am saying. Women and men can rise above those expectations. It’s called feminism.

Wrong, you just described patriarchy. You do not know what that word means. You understand it as “men good, women bad”. You described an aspect of patriarchy as it effects both women’s expectations of men and men’s expectations of women.

Of course everyone is responsible for their own actions. However when discussing the way a group of people, especially such a wide one as half the population, you use terms that accurately describe the ideologies at work rather than the group itself. Because to do so builds stereotypes and reinforces false consciousness related to that group. In your case, you are stuck in the male patriarchal false consciousness that is clouding your ability to see that we are saying the same thing.

Brother, you are right now repeating the most common, basic and wrong male anti feminist talking points as you talk about how women are so baby brained that they can’t think.

It ain’t hyperbole. It’s academic theory. You are so caught up in not using the word you don’t like. I am telling you that you don’t know what that word means. I explain what it means. You then repeat “no” and then say the same thing but in a misogynist lens.

There’s even non misogynist ways to explain the “operating as one unit” borg brain you are talking about. It’s just the women’s side of patriarchy. That’s a built in function of patriarchy. You have a hard time seeing that because you are not a woman and have a flawed concept of the word patriarchy. Do you get what I’m saying?

I should also note. The concept you are referring to as “they can’t think for themselves” is called False Consciousness. The idea that oppressive systems like patriarchy and capitalism create this sense that you are acting with complete free will but you actually are following a set of expectations and thoughts and even language that feedback loops on itself in a never ending reinforcement loop.

It’s like, your right at the core of what your saying. There is truth there. But you use such anti women language rather than targeting the systems, ideologies and incentives that make both men and women this way.

That’s still not disagreeing with me though. You are agreeing fundamentally with what I am saying, but you don’t understand what the words mean. You have a false consciousness of your own that is at this moment blocking you from understanding what mean by “patriarchy”.

The only difference in what we are saying is that you don’t know the big fancy words and theory backing it up and instead replace it with anti women language that you have picked up and understood. At the core, past the language and operating on pure ideas, we are saying the same thing.

You are still just complaining about the intersection of patriarchy and capitalism. What you are saying is feminist theory. We are still in agreement here, though I disagree with the way you word it.

For example. You say that the average women wants to live like Instagram models. You are right, but that is due to patriarchy creating the cultural expectations that men are unable to meet in the modern world due to capitalisms squeeze. It is women simply trying to meet their side of the expectation.

Feminism is in part about how patriarchy binds both genders by expectations. People generally focus on the way it binds women. However it fucks men over as well. We are expected to have money, we are expected to “provide” weather in the classical sense of a family or in the modern sense of just having the money to meet consumerist whims, it doesn’t really matter which one your talking about, it’s still patriarchy.

When patriarchy is normally discussed it’s about how men are privileged and women are oppressed. And while even as a, as the incels like to say, “low value man” you do have some societal privileges, it is very often ignored that patriarchy oppresses us men as well for not meeting those expectations. In this case, having money. Which we don’t because capitalism funnels money into fewer and fewer hands, making fewer and fewer men able to achieve those expectations.

I hope I explained this well and didn’t talk in too many circles. Like I said. Wombo combo of capitalism and patriarchy that tag team to fuck over men.

Take your time. Ill be here, willing to talk the best I can.

But that’s not women’s fault, that’s patriarchys fault for instilling into men on a deep cultural level that they need to make money to “provide” and then capitalism exploiting us workers so hard that that “providing” goal is impossible for a lot of us.

A lot of men deal with that insecurity by entering hustle grindset mindsets. Others get taken advantage of by right wing groups and say it’s women’s expectations at fault, not understanding that feminism also combats that expectation.

The point being, patriarchy binds us all, men and women with its expectations, and capitalism has made meeting those expectations impossible for a lot of people resulting in a double wombo combo of fucking men over.

I do not think it’s worth acknowledging a difference in opinion when the problem at its core is the difference in what those words mean. I don’t think we have a difference in opinion. I think he does not know what I or the article mean. If someone could just find the words to tell him in a way he understands then I feel we would be surprised to see that no disagreement existed in the first place.

Now to find the words…