I do have kids, and so does the other wife. “Everyone needs food, and kindness. Everyone deserves to go outside, explore, feel the warmth of the sun on their skin. But women and men both deserve dignity, respect, and care.” I agree with this and don’t think these are gender specific needs. But I also do believe men and women are different, and have different expectations, responsibilities, privileges and roles in society and life. “And that leads to women constantly being spiritually pushed around and silenced. And it also leads to more women who think they deserve abuse, subordination, and who won’t get themselves out of harmful situations.” - that’s just bad interpretation and a pretext-justification for bad behavior. If I was abused or even neglected I’d be granted a divorce. Different doesn’t mean better than the other, it means important in their own unique way. “And many women don’t want to be caged in their houses with that as their only path in life. Women deserve more than one narrow path.” - and I agree with this, as I’ve said, women should work if they want to, not because they need to. “I’ve heard a lot of former Muslim women talk about their own marriages–none of them discussed getting to advocate for themselves in their marriage contracts–maybe more often the fathers are supposed to do to that for them?” - that’s an education issue. Women do have a wali “guardian” (it can be your father, uncle, brother, etc.) who has to be present and he should advocate for the woman and gets the most out of her marriage contract; but you should be the one to advocate for yourself - since you and your spouse are the only ones actually drafting the contract. “Honestly, it sounds like you’re trying to peddle this tradwife life” - I’m not peddling anything, I don’t believe my life is the way or the highway.
“- that’s just bad interpretation and a pretext-justification for bad behavior. If I was abused or even neglected I’d be granted a divorce. Different doesn’t mean better than the other, it means important in their own unique way”
I dunno man, I’ve been working through a lot of the gender-essentialist garbage I was raised in, and this just takes me back to so many childhood conversations with teachers at church where I would ask why someone couldn’t do something (where the answer was because they were female), and I’d say that sounds sexist; then I’d get fed the platitudes about how men and women were created for different roles. It was a line that was used to shut me up, personally.
You can personally believe that women should get to choose their own path, but how are women considered in your society & the wider Islamic world if they choose to work instead of get married? I know Afghanistan is not in the Gulf, but it is known for following strict Islamic law. I’ve been seeing news headlines TODAY about female midwife/nursing students now being forbidden to continue their studies. It was the last path of higher education available to them. How are women supposed to know their rights or how they should be treated if they cannot get education? Again, I’ve heard story after story of women (middle eastern and western, Muslim and Christian) who were raised to believe they had to obey their fathers on everything, who were homeschooled, who didn’t understand what they deserved. How would those women, do you think, advocate for themselves in a marriage contract? I’d be fucking pissed if at 30 I found out I could have written “no other wives, no gambling” but no body told me. That feels like a trap.
I don’t know specifically about divorce in the Muslim world–is that relatively easy to get? Again, here in the West, divorce is relatively easy to get. It’s still really hard, really expensive. And pastors regularly tell women who are being abused not to leave their abusive spouses (https://julieroys.com/woman-john-macarthur-church-stay-abusive-husband/ as an example, though there are plenty more that don’t make it into the news). And most of the churches that counsel women this was are invariably gender-essentialists. Biblical Manhood & Womanhood philosophy, even when they don’t use those precise terms. Additionally, a lot of people coming out of abusive relationships report later that they couldn’t see just how abusive their situations were until they were months or years out. So honestly, how do you know you could get out of an abusive situation? Do you have a secret stash of money? Do you trust your family to help you, or your religious leaders? Just because something should be available under the correct circumstances doesn’t mean it is. If it is there for you, I’m am so glad. Truly. I’m glad you have a relationship that works for you and you feel secure in your life. But pushing that women and men are different, or that women need men as guardians, normalizes attitudes that really do result in hurt and subjugation.
If I was abused or even neglected I’d be granted a divorce
Granted? And what if you couldn’t prove you were being abused? Actual abuse isn’t like on tv where the victim is walking around covered in bruises. Abusers are very good at hiding it
I do have kids, and so does the other wife. “Everyone needs food, and kindness. Everyone deserves to go outside, explore, feel the warmth of the sun on their skin. But women and men both deserve dignity, respect, and care.” I agree with this and don’t think these are gender specific needs. But I also do believe men and women are different, and have different expectations, responsibilities, privileges and roles in society and life. “And that leads to women constantly being spiritually pushed around and silenced. And it also leads to more women who think they deserve abuse, subordination, and who won’t get themselves out of harmful situations.” - that’s just bad interpretation and a pretext-justification for bad behavior. If I was abused or even neglected I’d be granted a divorce. Different doesn’t mean better than the other, it means important in their own unique way. “And many women don’t want to be caged in their houses with that as their only path in life. Women deserve more than one narrow path.” - and I agree with this, as I’ve said, women should work if they want to, not because they need to. “I’ve heard a lot of former Muslim women talk about their own marriages–none of them discussed getting to advocate for themselves in their marriage contracts–maybe more often the fathers are supposed to do to that for them?” - that’s an education issue. Women do have a wali “guardian” (it can be your father, uncle, brother, etc.) who has to be present and he should advocate for the woman and gets the most out of her marriage contract; but you should be the one to advocate for yourself - since you and your spouse are the only ones actually drafting the contract. “Honestly, it sounds like you’re trying to peddle this tradwife life” - I’m not peddling anything, I don’t believe my life is the way or the highway.
“- that’s just bad interpretation and a pretext-justification for bad behavior. If I was abused or even neglected I’d be granted a divorce. Different doesn’t mean better than the other, it means important in their own unique way”
I dunno man, I’ve been working through a lot of the gender-essentialist garbage I was raised in, and this just takes me back to so many childhood conversations with teachers at church where I would ask why someone couldn’t do something (where the answer was because they were female), and I’d say that sounds sexist; then I’d get fed the platitudes about how men and women were created for different roles. It was a line that was used to shut me up, personally.
You can personally believe that women should get to choose their own path, but how are women considered in your society & the wider Islamic world if they choose to work instead of get married? I know Afghanistan is not in the Gulf, but it is known for following strict Islamic law. I’ve been seeing news headlines TODAY about female midwife/nursing students now being forbidden to continue their studies. It was the last path of higher education available to them. How are women supposed to know their rights or how they should be treated if they cannot get education? Again, I’ve heard story after story of women (middle eastern and western, Muslim and Christian) who were raised to believe they had to obey their fathers on everything, who were homeschooled, who didn’t understand what they deserved. How would those women, do you think, advocate for themselves in a marriage contract? I’d be fucking pissed if at 30 I found out I could have written “no other wives, no gambling” but no body told me. That feels like a trap.
I don’t know specifically about divorce in the Muslim world–is that relatively easy to get? Again, here in the West, divorce is relatively easy to get. It’s still really hard, really expensive. And pastors regularly tell women who are being abused not to leave their abusive spouses (https://julieroys.com/woman-john-macarthur-church-stay-abusive-husband/ as an example, though there are plenty more that don’t make it into the news). And most of the churches that counsel women this was are invariably gender-essentialists. Biblical Manhood & Womanhood philosophy, even when they don’t use those precise terms. Additionally, a lot of people coming out of abusive relationships report later that they couldn’t see just how abusive their situations were until they were months or years out. So honestly, how do you know you could get out of an abusive situation? Do you have a secret stash of money? Do you trust your family to help you, or your religious leaders? Just because something should be available under the correct circumstances doesn’t mean it is. If it is there for you, I’m am so glad. Truly. I’m glad you have a relationship that works for you and you feel secure in your life. But pushing that women and men are different, or that women need men as guardians, normalizes attitudes that really do result in hurt and subjugation.
Granted? And what if you couldn’t prove you were being abused? Actual abuse isn’t like on tv where the victim is walking around covered in bruises. Abusers are very good at hiding it