My favorite part is where they continue to argue with my banned ass, knowing full well I can’t respond. The only way to win for them, I suppose.
Edit: Looks like there was some confusion regarding cross-posting in the original link so I’ll just put the Modlog link here that displays the removed comment and ban, with the thread itself linked here. I’d rather add than change for the sake of the post’s integrity and preventing confusion.
YDI.
It’s fairly clear from the sidebar that the community positions itself against ML/grad.
The moderator is well known for being hostile to “tankies”. At the same time .ml itself has banned Deceptichum from communities they’ve never engaged with based purely on their ideological values so it feels hypocritical to complain about them doing the same unless you also disagree with .ml’s moderation.
I got banned from a dozen out so communities cause I had the gall to claim Hasan did actually shock his dog.
What’s funny is they cite “serial down voter”.
My siblings in baahl, I never even knew those communities existed, and votes are public, and I very rarely down vote anything. Like it really is 50:1 ratio.
I have read a few times that .ml bans people for downvoting anything.
China is persecuting the Uyghurs, they are forcing them into harsh programs to strip them of their non-Chinese cultural aspects. Some academics see this as a type of genocide, as they are effectively erasing a culture/ethnicity. Most feel there has to be a physical displacement, or mass killings in an attempt to destroy their people, to truly qualify for this label. I am on the side of the latter. I can understand the former’s argument, but I think cultural erasure, rather than physical displacement/mass killing, should be a separate atrocity. Looking at what OP has been saying, it seems they believe this too.
Only thing I really see on leftist spaces that bothers me, in this arena, is the people who will argue as I do about the Uyghurs, but consider the residential schools of North America a genocide. The natives went through a real genocide, cultural erasure was a clear step back in depravity. An atrocity none-the-less, just not THE atrocity.
The biggest source on this is Adrian Zenz and the victims of communism memorial.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
To your point, I do believe cultural erasure is monstrous, but also does pale in comparison to ethnic cleansing. I don’t know enough off the top of my head to say anything about residential schools so I’ll absent myself from that one for now.
I’m in Canada, my grandmother was Mi’kmaq, and I agree with the post above.
In Canada, indigenous children were taken from their parents to be given a “proper” education in residential schools, usually against the wishes of the family. Some parents never saw their children again, who where forced to speak english (and/or french,) and stripped of any indigenous cultural practices in favor of modern Christianity. They were even given Christian names. Many kids were tortured, sometimes to death.
I’m just scratching ther surface here as we’re still uncovering new atrocities if you follow Canadian news. APTN and Indigenews occasionally write about it and the other bullshit indigenous peoples have survived.
But I agree, that was/is a cultural erasure and not a genocide. You could make comparisons to genocides, including other shit that was done to the OG people here, it’s just a different degree of bad.
A friend of mine, back in my school days, is a native american guy. His name is Eagle Boy, and when he started school where I was the teacher straight asked him what his “real” name was, and when he said that his legal name is Eagle Boy, she said “No, your christian name”. He also got shit for his hair, and it was a constant point of contention vs their dress code. They knew this type of discrimination was illegal, they just didn’t give a shit, and there was very little chance they would suffer any consequences for it.
Eagle Boy is a fucking awesome name. I hope he never gave in despite that horse shit.
I saw a lot of the same stuff in school, it’s ridiculous when the bullying comes from the teachers… and a life lesson.
Loved the Chinese kid named Quang (pronounced Wang) who refused to change his name for anyone and owned it. I hope he’s doing well.
Right?! That name goes fucking hard. These days he generally goes by E.B. His older brother is named Sunbear, though he goes by his middle name, which is more common. The youngest got European common names.
They did not put up with this shit. The school was a Kafka-esque nightmare, and many other people had major problems. I was almost in a lawsuit with them, but they settled for covering my tuition to go to another school, an awesome school at that.
Talking to him, apparently there is (or was, at the time) some level of controversy within their tribe over this type of naming. I guess there is a portion of the population that thinks they are being stereotypical, and it hurts the native image in some way. Some said if they wanted those names they should have used the native language, rather than english, however there was some problem with that, I can’t remember what. So that was an interesting insight.
Transferring children is literally one of the definitions for genocide.
What you have described is genocide. Weasel words like cultural erasure should not be used to refer to the destruction of an ethnic group.
The children forced to go to these schools largely were returned to the region they came from, when their residence was ended. The schools also tended to operate in the region of the people they put through the system. The Trail of Tears, however, is the kind of thing where displacement is considered to be a genocide, these things are both horrible, but they are not the same.
The House of Commons has literally stated it is a genocide, based on the findings of the 2015 Truth and Reconciliation Council. The TRC was chaired by Murray Sinclair a member of the Ojibwe Nation, while Willie Littlechild a Cree Chief and Grand Chief of the Confederacy of Treaty Six First Nations acted as commissioner.
On 27 October 2022, the House of Commons unanimously agreed that the government must “recognize what happened in Canada’s Indian residential schools as genocide
https://www.ourcommons.ca/documentviewer/en/44-1/INAN/report-13/page-42
I didn’t see that definition on the list. You may mean that’s an aspect of genocide.
Let’s not downplay cultural erasure.
Article II on the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Let’s not downplay genocide.
“In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”
From the UN articles on genocide. I don’t agree with that definition because “in part” is too broad and difficult to prove.
But splitting hairs over the definition of something so broad and contentious is missing the point. I fight for restorative justice and believe, like you, these acts were/are detestable. Whether we agree on the definition of a word is moot.
I think there’s a pretty notable difference between what your grandmother went through and China’s policies in Xinjiang. The Canadian cultural erasure program was a blanket program to try and erase the culture of all indigenous people. In Xinjiang, the vast majority of Uyghurs haven’t been affected by the anti-extremist program. It’s a much more limited scope and they mostly target older, chronically underemployed economically vulnerable people to put into a vocational program so they can get employment and get deradicalized from the ETIM ideology. The whole point of the program was to protect all the other people in Xinjiang province from an extremist group, not to integrate them into Han Chinese culture.
I’ll leave you with The Xinjiang Atrocity Propaganda Blitz as further reading, but this focuses more on the semiotics and ideology behind this narrative than the actual facts. There used to be a Google Doc called “Notes on China Uighur Controversies” that I read some years ago that explained the full situation with the ETIM and CIA backing of the ETIM very well, sadly it seems it’s now down and I don’t remember what their sources were (I think many of them were Chinese sources which I can’t read anyway).
I was responding to the above posters comment on residential schools in North America.
Yeah you’re good, just wanted to say that there isn’t a 1:1 comparison between that and the thread topic.
I wouldn’t say anything is. Thanks for providing more information, regardless.
ya gotta follow the guidelines in the sidebar:
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Which mods/admins were being Power Tripping Bastards?
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What sanction did they impose (e.g. community ban, instance ban, removed comment)?
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Provide a screenshot of the relevant modlog entry (don’t de-obfuscate mod names).
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Provide a screenshot and explanation of the cause of the sanction (e.g. the post/comment that was removed, or got you banned).
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Explain why you think its unfair and how you would like the situation to be remedied.
- Deceptichum
- 74 year ban and removal of “offending” comment
- Modlog linked
- Modlog linked
- Comment removed was pretty anodyne, was a direct pull from Wikipedia which is pretty much the most inoffensive source possible.
Thanks!
There is no link to the content, or the modlog in your post, just a link to another community where you also posted this…
Weird, must be my front-end then, sorry about that! Linking now: https://lemmy.ml/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=19596601
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Yes.
Free the Uyghurs, fuck China.
Fuck the incoming clowns who will say “butt Adrian Zenz and cia color ops”.
Also hilarious you link to your tankie circlejerk thread than the original.
And I did not reply to you after banning and removing your last comment, so you’re also outright lying.
You’re trash.
Do you support the White South Africans against their Genocide or White Americans against their Genocide due to the Great Replacement or are you a genocide denier saying “That isn’t real, that is based on lies”. I have no time for your tankie bullshit.
Nice try with the false equivalence.
The key difference is one has real world evidence with actual scholarly debate behind it, the argument is over semantics. I.e. is it genocide or cultural erasure, your events are straight up bullshit with nothing backing it up. But i bet you feel very smug thinking you’ve “got” me here.
Even state department mouthpieces have to grudgingly admit that even the thing you could wilfully misconstrue as some kind of cultural suppression has already ended
The CIA tried to fund a breakaway sect of violent Islamic extremists, whose main target was other Uyghurs, and China conducted the most thorough and successful deradicalization campaign of all time
“Fuck the incoming clowns who will inevitably and correctly point out the complete absence of evidence for any claims presented here” lol good one
What would you think of someone who said there was no evidence of a genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza?
What would you think of someone who regularly defended a country that supports foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist Hitler and Mussolini supporting intellectuals?
What would you think of someone who said there was no evidence of a genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza?
Yes, you’re correct that if there was an overwhelming amount of credible evidence from an almost uncountable number of sources (including the people committing genocide bragging about it) it would be different.
There’s no equivalence there. Treating these two things as equivalent minimizes (possibly even rises to the level of denying) the actual genocide.
What would you think of someone who regularly defended a country that supports foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist Hitler and Mussolini supporting intellectuals?
Even if we accept whatever you’re trying to say here completely at face value, is your stance that someone who says “this specific claim about China is not supported by credible evidence” has to then answer for every single thing any leader in any country ever supported in any way by China has said?
Even if we accept whatever you’re trying to say here completely at face value
What do you think I’m trying to say?
What do you think I’m trying to say?
I have no idea because you chose to be vague instead of making specific claims about which country and leader China supported. Please stop making every sentence a rhetorical question, just say what you mean directly. Regardless, as I said, it’s not relevant. See the quoted paragraph below from my previous reply.
is your stance that someone who says “this specific claim about China is not supported by credible evidence” has to then answer for every single thing any leader in any country ever supported in any way by China has said?
If you're going to reply to this, please actually address the points I originally brought up (copied inside the spoiler) instead of dodging them.
What would you think of someone who said there was no evidence of a genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza?
Yes, you’re correct that if there was an overwhelming amount of credible evidence from an almost uncountable number of sources (including the people committing genocide bragging about it) it would be different.
There’s no equivalence there. Treating these two things as equivalent minimizes (possibly even rises to the level of denying) the actual genocide.
What would you think of someone who regularly defended a country that supports foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist Hitler and Mussolini supporting intellectuals?
Even if we accept whatever you’re trying to say here completely at face value, is your stance that someone who says “this specific claim about China is not supported by credible evidence” has to then answer for every single thing any leader in any country ever supported in any way by China has said?
Are you sure you know what a rhetorical question is?
Are you sure you know what a discussion is?
What would you think of someone who said there was no evidence of a genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza?
That depends, is there evidence of these things and they’re contradicting that evidence? Even Wikipedia, one of the most lib sources of all, does not have an article for Uyghur genocide. Armenian genocide? Check. Gaza genocide? Check. Uyghurs? Persecution of Uyghurs in China. This isn’t a good thing, mind you, but there’s a qualitative difference between persecution and genocide.
Also, if you’re in the west and examining Uyghur persecution in China more than Black persecution in the states or Romani persecution in Europe, it may be time to examine the plank in your eye before the speck in China’s.
What would you think of someone who regularly defended a country that supports foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist Hitler and Mussolini supporting intellectuals?
Ah, the old double genocide theory (about 30 years old, in fact). Look that one up on Wikipedia too while you’re at it. Good little bedtime story for Nazi collaborators.
I notice you prefered to avoid answering my question about foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist intellectuals, intellectuals who openly admired Hitler and Mussolini. Instead you brought up the double genocide, which wasn’t relevant to my question.
Why do you think it is that you’d rather not answer a question about leaders who regularly quote fascist intellectuals and the countries that support them?
What would you think if someone tried to change the topic when you asked them a question related to polticians quoting fascist intellectuals?
Where would you think their political affiliations lie?
https://lemmy.ml/post/41654379/23321470
Here’s a link to my reply to you from 30 minutes ago which addresses every point you bring up here. I’ll copy the relevant parts below.
I notice you prefered to avoid answering my question about foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist intellectuals, intellectuals who openly admired Hitler and Mussolini.
Why do you think it is that you’d rather not answer a question about leaders who regularly quote fascist intellectuals and the countries that support them?
What would you think if someone tried to change the topic when you asked them a question related to polticians quoting fascist intellectuals?
Even if we accept whatever you’re trying to say here completely at face value, is your stance that someone who says “this specific claim about China is not supported by credible evidence” has to then answer for every single thing any leader in any country ever supported in any way by China has said?
Instead you brought up the double genocide, which wasn’t relevant to my question.
What would you think of someone who said there was no evidence of a genocide or ethnic cleansing in Gaza?
Yes, you’re correct that if there was an overwhelming amount of credible evidence from an almost uncountable number of sources (including the people committing genocide bragging about it) it would be different.
There’s no equivalence there. Treating these two things as equivalent minimizes (possibly even rises to the level of denying) the actual genocide.
I notice you prefered to avoid answering my question about foreign leaders who regularly quote fascist intellectuals, intellectuals who openly admired Hitler and Mussolini. Instead you brought up the double genocide, which wasn’t relevant to my question.
Let’s see if that’s true. What were you referring to with leaders who quote fascist intellectuals, because my point in referencing double genocide was the “Red Fash” trope that libs refer to often, but there may have been a misunderstanding.
What would you think if someone tried to change the topic when you asked them a question related to polticians quoting fascist intellectuals?
You seem to have found this an intriguing point to hone in on, willingly ignoring the rest of the points I and others had mentioned as well. If we’re making such inferences, what does that infer about you?
What do you think it infers about me?
That you’re intellectually dishonest, a real dialog with you isn’t possible, and I’d have a more coherent conversation with a dog, thus this conversation is now over.
I’d think they were stupid because we have a shitload of actual physical evidence for what’s going on in Gaza, and absolutely fuck all for similar evidence in regard to China, fucking duh
Also hilarious you link to your tankie circlejerk thread than the original.
Eh, I thought I was cross posting 🤷♀️ The modlog links to the thread anyway, but I’m sure this was a huge win for you 👍
And I did not reply to you after banning and removing your last comment, so you’re also outright lying.
Indeed, you were the only person in the thread who could have replied to anything, but please tell me more about your leftist/anarchist/whatever values that you undoubtedly have.
Indeed, you were the only person in the thread who could have replied to anything
You claimed I banned you and replied to you after so that I could get the last word in, that’s been proven false. Why are you lying?
I’m not lying, this is one of those rare instances in ambiguity between the singular and plural “they”. When I wrote this, I had a number of comments in the post, many were still being responded to by other people. Thus when banned, I could no longer respond to responses to them, prematurely terminating ongoing conversations because of your wounded ego.
Eh, I thought I was cross posting
FYI, on Lemmy you can (unlike some websites) edit your post to change the link or remove the link and include all the information in the post body.
Fuck you China not America
Weird that ML is a reason when that’s not in the rules. Wonder why they don’t block the instance or have a rule against them posting.
PTB though. Persecution is bullshit but not the same as a genocide.
free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.
It’s right there in the sidebar buddy.
Persecution is bullshit but not the same as a genocide.
Forced re-education and destruction of culture is literally genocide. Not to mention the literal slavery.
(How’s this for a ‘school’)https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/9/24/china-running-380-detention-centres-in-xinjiang-researchers I know, I know Al Jazeera is a big bad Western information source /s
Your article is dogshit.
“Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI) said it had identified more than 380 “suspected detention facilities” in the region”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Strategic_Policy_Institute
A defense contractor think-tank says it has identified “suspected detention facilities” and provides exactly zero evidence to substantiate that claim. Did you not bother reading this at all before posting it or were you just hoping nobody else would?
I found that rule confusingly worded, so it does mean .ML and .Grad aren’t allowed to post? Why not just say that?
Whether a genocide occured/is occuring is still an academic/legal gray area. Some call it a genocide, others say cultural erasure and extensive human rights abuses are their own animals. Genocide literally has a bunch of definitions.
You’re assuming a lot about me. I created !Independent_Media@lemmy.today !wild_feed@sh.itjust.works and !indy_news_canada@sh.itjust.works
I live in the west, I have no problem with western media.
I found that rule confusingly worded, so it does mean .ML and .Grad aren’t allowed to post? Why not just say that?=
Because many people signed up for ML without knowing it was a tankie instance and aren’t tankies themselves - Those users are allowed to post.
Whether a genocide occured/is occuring is still an academic/legal gray area. Some call it a genocide, others say cultural erasure and extensive human rights abuses are their own animals. Genocide literally has a bunch of definitions.
Up until a few months ago pieces of shit were arguing Gaza wasn’t a genocide either. I’ve always called it as such, and I’ll do the same here. The intent is to destroy their culture, leading to the end of an ethnic group, ergo I view it as genocide and I don’t platform denying that. They have 3 whole instances and leftymemes to do that, they can live without one community.
You’re assuming a lot about me. I created !Independent_Media@lemmy.today !wild_feed@sh.itjust.works and !indy_news_canada@sh.itjust.works
Eh, I don’t really care if you do or don’t, but if I had say posted this Reuters piece instead that tankies would argue it was all Western propaganda. Gotta pre-empt them before they spam walls of copy-pasted propaganda.
Tankies are the worst, I keep accidentally replying to posts on like hexbear and you can’t have real conversations, they just want to make cheap points, and will all spam en masse at you if you disagree with their braindead takes.
I talked with you a little bit and thought you were just fine. I don’t think we disagreed on anything.
Oh thanks. I was referring to more previous interactions where I got mobbed by the group and thought the 1st time they were just super politically correct so kept defending myself.
I am sure I have good interactions all the time and only notice the ones where the group mobs me for cheap political points.
There’s nothing “tankie” about disagreeing on the definition of a word with a lot of definitions. Maybe wait for the argument before arguing against it?
I bookmarked that article, thanks. Although, I found no mention of the word “genocide,” I like Reuters.
There’s everything tankie about an .ml denying the genocide of the Uyghur. And no, I’m not going to platform them and give them a chance to say their shit. Like I said they have 3 whole comms to do that in, they can go do it there.
I’m gonna be real with you, I’m not even going to look at a MBFC link. It’s a Zionist shitrag and I don’t value their rating on anything as it’s been shown to be biased time and time again.
Al Jazeera is state media. It should be looked at with similar skepticism as BBC or RT. They’re probably one of the best news outlets in the world despite that fact, and I’ll forever be in their debt because of their journalists’ work and sacrifice to bring the truth of the genocide in Gaza to light. But that doesn’t absolve them of ever having bias, no more than the Soviet Union is absolved of any sin because they defeated Nazi Germany.
So…
ML was a reason for banning them, but you only ban for authoritarian apologia and not because someone is from ML. Now you’re saying they’re a “tankie” because they denied the genocide, even though the facr of a Uyghur genocide is a contested topic regardless of political leanings.
That’s some round as hell looking logic. I don’t think there was/is a genocide either and I have huge problems with the governments of China, Russia and DPK, including the treatment of the Uyghurs. We don’t have to agree on terms ro agree some serious shit went down.
Mediabias is quoted in published scientific journals and their fact checks are done by independent reviewers from the International Fact Checking Network.
But I can’t argue with someone who throws a label on everything they disagree with so they don’t ever have to consider nuance.
Denying obvious bullshit is normal and good, doing state department volunteer work is weird and bad
doing state department volunteer work is weird and bad
Like being the P.R. department for China?
PTB IMO.
Banned for “genocide denial” for pointing out that even NATOpedia admits that the evidence for the genocide an enemy of NATO is accused of is not credible. What do you have to do to avoid being banned? Be more of an Amerikkkan imperialist than the average Wikipedia editor?
