Welcome again to everybody. Make yourself at home. In the time-honoured tradition of our group, here is the weekly discussion thread.
☭ Matrix homeserver and space
☭ Theory discussion group on /c/theory@lemmygrad.ml
☭ Find theory on ProleWiki, marxists.org, Anna’s Archive
🫵 You WILL have hope, comrade.
Thank you very much (though it was not directed towards me), I need the hope after reading Hoxha… oh my satan he is bad. I barely got into the introduction before seeing some awful “anti-revisionist” nonsense.
In the most recent attempt of the media to shit talk our party, they are now calling us a cult. Why? Because some of our party members are leaving.
The people leaving are upset mostly because of the rules we have in place. Rules which they are informed about before working their way up the ranks. Rules like having the give a part of your salary to the party in order to keep a wage that is similar to that of the average worker.
People then get elected into positions of power in city councils and whatnot and, as you can guess, their wage increases significantly. They see thousands of euros and they suddenly feel like not donating a part anymore and turn independent. It happens.
You get heavily informed beforehand. You have talks, the party will make a calculation, they will check your entire social support system to see if you will not get into financial trouble. And yet people leave and blame us for… having principles.
Really reminds me of the Parenti unfalsifiable orthodoxy quote.
People leave party? Cult.
People want to be in party? Must be brainwashed!
They’ll find a way to spin it negatively no matter what you do.
this made me laughDon’t they still have swastikas on some of their military flags lol
from 1 (one) cursory search they have been phasing it out, but i just want to highlight some quotes a western rag had to explain the use, part of the longer read, which was just saying “well other finns were using it before hitler!!!”.
The count used the swastika as a personal good luck charm. When he gifted a plane to the nascent air force of Sweden’s newly independent neighbour in 1918 he had had a blue swastika painted on it. This Thulin Typ D was the first aircraft of the Finnish air force and subsequent planes all had his blue swastika symbol too, until 1945.
Supporters of a continued use of the symbol point out that there were no Nazis in 1918 so the air force’s use of the swastika has nothing to do with Nazism.
However, while Eric von Rosen had no Nazi associations at the time of his 1918 gift, he did subsequently become a leading figure in Sweden’s own national socialist movement in the 1930s. He was also a brother-in-law of senior German Nazi Herman Göring, and, according to Prof Teivainen, a personal friend of Hitler.
oh it’s good to know other finns with no nazi affiliations were using it before hitler! oh what’s that? the named example we gave was in fact affiliated with nazis and hitler? uhh. okay
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53249645
and then also
While the emblem of the Finnish Air Force Academy still features a swastika - superimposed with a propeller - the unheralded move away from the old insignia of the central Air Force Command suggests that the military top brass are ready to move on from Count von Rosen and his blue and white swastika.
^so … the academy still has it??? lol, even if best case assuming they somehow rlly dont think most finns associate it with it with nazi symbolism, why not just remove it everywhere anyway instead of going halfway??? so silly.
https://apnews.com/article/finland-swastika-air-force-nato-423a764e6e72abde083f6136e06461c0
he made a statement so Ignoring The Fascism even his gang was confused
I love how insurance is basically taxes where the insurance company takes more than what taxes would and also doesn’t provide the service it’s supposed to
And it is a tax… even if you do not use it lol. It is the biggest legalized scam I have ever had the displeasure of experiencing (for a land that is so against taxes, they seem to be fine with something arguably worse than it). You are also right about it not providing the services it is supposed to (do pro-capitalist dogs think that the power imbalance between the consumer and an insurance industry is equal or something?).
Without free markets how would we ever innovate❤️
I’m critical of religion but Islamophobia is so rampant and vile lately, that I find myself becoming Allah’s most faithful servant when arguing with people over it.
theres an anticommunist poster of islamist bolsheviks that makes me giggle, like its obviously a way to frame islam in a way similar to ‘judeo-bolshevism’, but ill be damned if i dont want to hang it up without any irony whenever i see islamophobia
So in an ironic sort of way like how anti-Musk protestors spray-painted Tesla cars with nazi symbols because he was a nazi?
no not really. i don’t think the example you give is ironic at all. to me it’s more like someone disparaging communists as “woke pro abortion gay trans stalinists” and youre like hell ya, i am a woke pro abortion gay trans stalinist. well, like, i may not be trans or gay but i would still be like, that’s not bad! so what! then i might call myself tjat semi ironicallu since its intended as a perjorative but i dont mean it that way i mean it like im awesome
But what does that have to do with hanging up the poster?
the same way you might jokingly reclaim the term “evil gay satanist stalinist” i’m reclaiming the idea of being an “islamist bolshevik” :3 does that make sense?
I guess? Are you a muslim, if you do not mind me asking?
no. but given the way the religion is demonized currently in the west, somewhat unfairly since their critiques lie with the “hamas terrorists” (to a lesser extent they used the pretense of gender and feminism as justification but that’s fallen away nowadays) and political radicals in islam, when people mock islam from that pov, i feel more inclined to stand in defense of those viewpoints of “radical islamists”, the radicals who are more like iranians making correct geopolitical analysis and saying that they should rally under allah to demolish the evils of zionism and the USA.
i believe also in demolishing zionism n the usa not because of religion, but since ppl belittle those that are religious that happen to have the correct take, i’m like fuck it sure i’m a radical jihadist that hates the usa, even though the reasons for my stance are not actually religious
And the most riduculous facts is that the Islamophobic people in the Western world are the one who is encouraging the spread of Islam. By repeatedly demonstrating their hypocrisy, self-contradiction, and self-serving narcissism, they are making their opposition sound more righteous. They keep on claiming that they are just and righteous without doubt by exaggerating their benevolent deeds against a crisis and hiding the fact their contribution to the very crisis that they claimed to solve. They still did not mention that the Indian Residenatial fake schools are the blueprint of the Nazi death camps or that the ongoing forced imprisonment, planned starvation, planned chemical attacks, and planned attacks by thugs in the federal reserves inspired the concentration camps. They also deny the facts that the “cultural degration” of their new generations were the product of the crimes from the older generations.
One thing I’ve been doing lots is pointing out that the six pointed star and the cross are graven images so zionists and most christians are idol worshipers which is against the first commandment.
That’s not what an idol is.
Idols, in the context of ancient West Asian polytheism, were conduits of divine energy trapped into physical objects to be manipulated by mortals. The idea was that the gods’ power was captured into a specific vessel which could then be used to bestow gifts and blessings. Ancient Jews objected to this practice because, in their theology, you cannot overpower God and seize his power for yourself and thus idolatry was a blasphemous practice. As understanding of traditional pagan practices in the region faded this understanding was lost, which led to aniconism/iconoclasm driven by a misunderstanding of any religious symbolism & imagery as being inherently idolatrous (imbued with divine power).
This is why those heresies largely failed and why it is acceptable for modern Christians and Jews to use symbols like the Star of David and the Cross: they aren’t idols. They are powerful symbols, yes, but there is no divine power captured within; they are simply man-made symbols of faith and have no mystical properties whatsoever.
If there is only one god and he doesn’t like idols then no graven image has divine power in it. The commandment isn’t “don’t worship objects or images that have gods in them because they don’t actually have gods in them” it is “don’t make images or objects to symbolize god because they are not god” The fabrication of the images is the sin.
Try desecrating a cross or six pointed star in front of a believer and then tell me they aren’t worshiping the image. Try wearing an inverted cross into a church and watch the swarm come to get you out.
I think you misunderstood.
The practice of idolatry in Mesopotamia, Phoenicia, etc. involved the creation of images in the shape of deities in the belief that they contained the captured essence of those deities. Early Judaism prohibited followers from imitating these practices with Yahweh. The image in question is “graven” specifically because it was understood to have divine power encased within it. There was no distinction between the physical object and the power that allegedly resided within; they were regarded as one and the same. This is why the prohibition on idolatry exists in Judeochristian tradition.
Failure to understand this was the entire reason the controversy of aniconism/iconoclasm arose and why the iconoclasts argument lost that struggle and why Christians and Jews are permitted to have symbols they consider sacred: because they’re not idols. Desecrating these images is of course going to be met with offense; you’re literally insulting their faith through desecration of sacred images. Why would they not be offended? But this isn’t the same thing as idolatry, which is a very specific form of worship that Jews and Christians (and Muslims as well) don’t observe. You’re interpreting the word “image” literally without understanding the context in which the scripture was written, which is exactly what the iconoclasts did and what Biblical Literalists today do.
There are better examples of hypocrisy among organized religion that aren’t rooted in Literalism, which I should point out is not the majority interpretation among most Christian sects (I can’t speak for Jewish sects here, admittedly) nor has it ever been.
No I understand the argument I just reject it as an overly complicated attempt to justify something that seems pretty cut and dry.
That only makes sense if you look at theology from an idealist perspective.
But much like everything else in human society theology is subject to material conditions. Context is thus crucial for understanding why certain practices exist. In this case the “argument” does not exist to justify the practice or the scripture but to explain why the scripture exists by pointing to the material conditions in which it arose: said conditions being the development of Judaism from a polytheistic religion, to a henotheistic religion, to a monotheistic religion and the consolidation of power behind the priesthood of Yahweh and their drive to distinguish themselves from their neighbors and their god not as an equal to other gods but as superior to other gods and eventually as the only real god that exists.
It’s all dialectics, baby.
You can’t apply Historical materialism to myth. You can’t cite historical context when nobody can be sure when the commandments were written. The oldest know copy of the ten commandments is from like 200 bce between a 900 and 1400 years after they were supposedly written.
The point of calling zioinist christians and people of Jewish heritage idol worshipers is not to engage with them in a serious discussion because they are idealists and spiritualists. You can’t talk to them in materialist terms. The point of it is to harm their psyche by saying the foundational principle of their faith has been corrupted by the institutions they follow.
And some Christians really do believe that crosses have divine magical powers.
“well how else am I supposed to repel vampires?”
Garlic bread.
you know whats funny? people keep saying about chinese people having no rights and being overworked but every time i contact my parts supplier they’re in some kind of holiday lol. They get a week off 1st of May too not just 1 day.
i’m jealous
King’s Day in The Netherlands. Because we live in medieval times and are still a monarchy. Mostly an excuse for a day off and to get wasted. I never had anything with the monarchy even before my communism days. Probably because I am from the southern part of the country and we have our own different culture compared to most of the rest of the country above the big rivers.
It’s also the start of my last week at my job and I can’t wait until it’s over.
Forgot you live you in Holland. I hate the idea of a monarchy, honestly. The only people I see supporting them are monarchists who will never do anything to restore monarchy in the countries they live in (if they do not have them anymore) or attempt to “increase the power” of the monarchy (if they do still have them), so they just end up being conservative chumps who have a weird feudal fascination.
Who was it that had a friend that when they heard about ‘‘Combat Liberalism’’, thought it meant a more combative liberalism adopting guerrilla tactics, jiu-jitsu and shit, instead of combating liberalism?
I’m pretty sure it was someone from r/GenZedong or r/MoreTankieChapo.
I was on a stream and someone mentioned it and I remembered how much that made me laugh imagining some Vote Blue No Matter Who’s with bandannas trying to pull Rambo shit.
well a couple days ago some vote blue no matter who guy did try to do that
Wouldn’t surprise me.
At least ten homeless people died in the last four months in my city. This coincides with the closing of several shelters by the new city government.
it kind of shocks me the r/tankiethedeprogram ppl dont know lemmygrad. did we not all go over this. didn’t the mods themselves promote it endlessly after the r/thedeprogram takedown and acp failed coup
Maybe they haven’t clicked any of the Lemmygrad sign-up links. Or, they don’t want to do the vetting process for any number of reasons. For me, it took getting nuked off of Reddit for saying we should do unto ICE as they do unto people.
My only regret was not joining here sooner. The amount of friendly folks here, plus all of the updates on geopolitics and Marxist literature is phenomenal. A number of posts on here set me on the right trajectory to thoroughly study dialectical materialism and have that be the framework and worldview for understanding the world.
It took me losing r/TheDeprogram to join here and it still took a few months after that because I was overwhelmed by the vetting process.
really?? i remember writing it all in like 15 minutes on a whim… but then being unsure if the quality of my response was sufficient
I just wish Lemmy grad was more active compared to Reddit
that’s true, and it is really glaring when you get to the smaller communities here, but i’m also somewhat grateful for the upside of a smaller site which is the lack of obvious psyops/wreckers. half of using mainstream social media as someone with cogent politics is blocking out the constant stream of nonsense on either mainstream subs that don’t focus on politics or random infiltrators in your political spaces and once you’re on a relatively quiet site you find that absence rather surprising
Yeah you get a more cozy atmosphere here with very few weird opportunists messing things up. I like it :3
I’m still low-key sus about that place tbh. The whole acp attempted coup and quick defeat was weird and the vibes are off now. A lot more zog shit is getting upvoted. And a mild reactionary undercurrent.
noticed too
Have a great week, everyone! One foot in front of the other, keep advancing in your goals.
As always, communism will win.
Thank you so much, wind dog (that is what your profile picture is)!
TERF women are a different breed of genuinely the worst
men who hate trans women wont even do the stupid pretense of feminism. that’s honesty, like the quote of the white moderate’s duplicity versus the open racist. you guys say youre feminist and then attack the category of women that are most oppressed and distort the meaning of feminism beyond comprehension into the most reactionary ideology ever, devoid of any aspiration towards gender equality, in fact advancing into the opposite, and then girls who are trying to be feminists get sucked into this and become evil too. genuinely evil
I’m officially unemployed
Congrats
*funemployed
being unemployed is not fun, you have nothing to do all day and your life feels meaningless
What happened?
I am sorry to hear that.
Being born “white” in the US and having no citizenship elsewhere is so weird if you are self-aware about colonization. Cause it’s like, well you’re an occupier, really. But you also have nowhere else to go. Your ancestors participated in colonizing, not you. But nevertheless, you’re still here and participating in a country that at best tolerates the presence of the indigenous nations. Like it’s not your fault, but materially you’re still a colonizer. The contradiction is still there, even if it isn’t something you consciously chose to be part of.
I suppose in this sense, it’s sort of like if someone is born into a rich family. You’re not the one who made the decisions that lead to you being rich. But you still benefit from it. Going in a different direction instead of repeating the exploitation may mean giving up some of what you have, but you still gotta do it in some way if you want to split from it in your actions.
Like, you aren’t to blame for what your parents, grandparents, etc. did. But you do bear some responsibility in what you do, even if it costs you to switch gears from the path they set.
Being a colonizer is in some respects also a state of mind. You can choose to behave in such a way that is consistent with anti-settlerism, with respect for the land and for its indigenous and oppressed people. Being aware of your privilege is a very good first step. Feeling personally guilty, however, is not productive. You don’t have to feel guilty so long as you choose to be part of the solution, to fight the colonial power structures, and stand in solidarity with those who don’t have your privilege.
In fact i would go so far as to say that an obnoxious guilt culture is itself a sign of a self-indulgent and performative attitude. You perform guilt to yourself and others to feel better about yourself and virtue signal. But this self-flaggelation materially helps no one.
The most instructive case study on this is how German society has made guilt culture a matter of national pride in an extremely toxic way, patting themselves on the back about how morally superior they are because of how they “dealt” with their past, all while yet again supporting Nazis and backing a genocide.
But back to the original point: the solution to colonialism is not ethnic cleansing. It is to build a just society that restores power back to the colonized. Those who are incapable of accepting this new de-colonized state of affairs in which they no longer enjoy settler privilege will leave on their own.
I don’t think you are looking at this in a healthy way or maybe just not expressing it well.
The “benefits” of being white in a settler colony are not a reward. You are just less exploited and abused than the indigenous people. Any negative emotions you are having should be directed at the ruling class not yourself.
If you are trying to fight to end the exploitation by the capitalist imperialist you are not the problem. You aren’t “an occupier” you are a victim of colonization just like the indigenous people just not at the same scale. You are not responsible for the material conditions of your birth, you are responsible for the actions you take. Recognizing the crimes of settler colonialism is important but they are not your crimes.
@cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml Pinging both of you as a more general reply:
I think you both make good points.
I will say, maybe the analogy to being born rich wasn’t quite suitable. But I’m trying to get past the blindness to the settler contradiction that can come with it and look at it as a matter of responsibility. Not for the purposes of self-flagellation or being owed some kind of harm for it, but more in the connotation of duty to humanity and liberation. It seems to me that when the subject gets brought up in the context of regional liberation, it is often brought up as an afterthought, like, “We’ll liberate from those capitalists… and also respect indigenous sovereignty.” I’m unconvinced that due attention is being paid to the importance of the second part, but I’m also not sure to what extent liberation movements are even talking to indigenous nations in the first place about the subject. Perhaps they are and the communication on it is strategic. I don’t know for sure.
There’s a feeling of statelessness that inherently comes with being a colonizer. That’s why colonizers struggle with so many identity issues and look for identity everywhere we can find it, even if those places are toxic. Just intuitively we know something is off about our way of life; that our culture and society are artificial rather than arising organically. The only real choice we have is to either embrace our colonial identity and continue the colonial project or reject it and try to find something new to connect to. The latter is more appealing (and healthier for everyone) but the former is just easier and is obviously encouraged by the colonial project itself.
