There’s nothing quite as elbows up in defending Canada as getting excited about the possibility of leaving. Have seen plenty of such cognitive dissonance among vocal nationalists now excited at the potential of living in Europe. Not a comment on the potential policy itself, but it makes me laugh a bit every time I see someone who has been vigorously flag waving suddenly excited about moving to Europe.
You’re responding to something quite different from what I wrote, which was a comment on people being flag-waving nationalists while also being excited to leave. But, on the points you raise, while I agree that flow of peoples and ideas is a good thing, I’ll also just point out that we had a lot of flow of peoples and ideas in already existing immigration policies until very recently. Is it just great that we’re cutting back on the flow of peoples and ideas from places like Asia while opening the flow to more people and ideas from Europe? Seems awfully reminiscent of the demands made by the US for a pivot back to embracing Western Civilization and keeping out those other people and their ideas.
I’m not going to disagree with you on this. I think there has been a problem with fast food establishments (especially) only hiring immigrants. I’m not going to get into that now. I will say this, though. I was a bookkeeper for several years at a large farm in the Fraser Valley, B.C. The work in the fields was hard. I will tell you that we constantly advertised for workers, and never got a response. The farm applied for temporary Mexican workers. We did have workers come from Mexico for a few months every year. They had amazing lodging on the farm, and were treated really well, and were paid fair wages. They were all Catholic, so one of the sons would drive them to church every Sunday, and the son would drive them wherever they wan’t to go for specific foods, etc. The same men came back every year. There’s always two sides to the story.
The issue is that you’re conflating patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism is loving your country while nationalism is thinking your country is superior to other countries. You can live and work in another country while still loving the country you came from. But if you believe your country is superior to other countries it would be hypocritical to want to go to another country.
So you are correct to think that wanting to go to the EU doesn’t align with nationalism. What you’re missing is that Canadians aren’t being nationalistic, we’re being patriotic. We’re against the US because the US is trying to assert dominance over our country, and that’s an existential threat to something we love. Elbows up is a reaction to that threat.
The EU on the other hand is not an existential threat to Canada. In fact a partnership with the EU will make both Canada and the EU more resilient against external threats to both. The EU doesn’t want us to stop being Canadian, and the very nature of the EU is multicultural and multilingual, so a Canadian could live and work there while being respected as a Canadian. This may not be the case in other parts of the world.
You’re also thinking the immigration policy is about some nationalistic cultural thing. It’s more of an economic consideration. Right now there’s a housing crisis in Canada and we’re in an economic crisis (because of you know who). It’s not economically feasible to have significantly more inflow of people than outflow right now. An open immigration policy with the EU isn’t going to happen tomorrow, and the housing situation and the relative inflow and outflow would be considered before adopting that kind of policy.
Yeah bit of a hangover from the covid crisis… a lot of doctors and nurses got burned out. The problem there is the various associations don’t want to recognize credentials from other countries to keep the demand for people with Canadian credentials high.
Nope. That was a whole lot of replying to not what I said. I have been repeatedly clear that I’m referring to nationalists. Those exist. They’re what I’m referring to.
AGM Ok, I read your comment again. I hear what you’re saying. You will see one of my previous posts that I would love and welcome doctors and nurses from any country/culture. I think you might be mistaken about who is able to get into Canada. Yes, we have had to back off on our immigration rules. Honestly, you must realize that. Grandmothers, Grandfathers, Nieces, Nephews, Aunts, Uncles. It really got to the point where anyone who was related to a naturalized Canadian could do the same. However, should our EU Associate go through, I don’t believe it’ll be any easier for them. I can give you all kinds of stories about Americans that applied to Canada, and were denied. Canada is tightening the rules, as they should. It’s not a free-for-all for Europeans. It’s trade relations. Get a grip…
If anything even comes of this. I do not think freedom of movement well be included as I don’t think the EU countries would agree to that, but we well see.
I personally have never experienced Elbows Up as nationalism, but as a response to nationalism.
I still buy Mexican produce, sometimes I buy French jam. I’m more likely to buy a German product that’s more expensive if the only other option is American. I’m buying more from a diversity of places than I was 5 years ago. I don’t want to be isolationist, I just don’t want one nation in particular to be a dick to us.
So from my perspective it’s never been nationalism. I’d also be interested in doing Europe stuff, since I’m not traveling to the States anymore, no dissonance required.
That’s fair. I see a lot of what I would consider nationalism, which I also think is natural in a case where people feel threatened by a force from outside, but it’s not everyone.
There’s nothing quite as elbows up in defending Canada as getting excited about the possibility of leaving. Have seen plenty of such cognitive dissonance among vocal nationalists now excited at the potential of living in Europe. Not a comment on the potential policy itself, but it makes me laugh a bit every time I see someone who has been vigorously flag waving suddenly excited about moving to Europe.
I mean this goes both ways though too, there will be an influx of EU residents moving to Canada. Flow of peoples and ideas is a good thing.
You’re responding to something quite different from what I wrote, which was a comment on people being flag-waving nationalists while also being excited to leave. But, on the points you raise, while I agree that flow of peoples and ideas is a good thing, I’ll also just point out that we had a lot of flow of peoples and ideas in already existing immigration policies until very recently. Is it just great that we’re cutting back on the flow of peoples and ideas from places like Asia while opening the flow to more people and ideas from Europe? Seems awfully reminiscent of the demands made by the US for a pivot back to embracing Western Civilization and keeping out those other people and their ideas.
I’m not going to disagree with you on this. I think there has been a problem with fast food establishments (especially) only hiring immigrants. I’m not going to get into that now. I will say this, though. I was a bookkeeper for several years at a large farm in the Fraser Valley, B.C. The work in the fields was hard. I will tell you that we constantly advertised for workers, and never got a response. The farm applied for temporary Mexican workers. We did have workers come from Mexico for a few months every year. They had amazing lodging on the farm, and were treated really well, and were paid fair wages. They were all Catholic, so one of the sons would drive them to church every Sunday, and the son would drive them wherever they wan’t to go for specific foods, etc. The same men came back every year. There’s always two sides to the story.
The issue is that you’re conflating patriotism with nationalism. Patriotism is loving your country while nationalism is thinking your country is superior to other countries. You can live and work in another country while still loving the country you came from. But if you believe your country is superior to other countries it would be hypocritical to want to go to another country.
So you are correct to think that wanting to go to the EU doesn’t align with nationalism. What you’re missing is that Canadians aren’t being nationalistic, we’re being patriotic. We’re against the US because the US is trying to assert dominance over our country, and that’s an existential threat to something we love. Elbows up is a reaction to that threat.
The EU on the other hand is not an existential threat to Canada. In fact a partnership with the EU will make both Canada and the EU more resilient against external threats to both. The EU doesn’t want us to stop being Canadian, and the very nature of the EU is multicultural and multilingual, so a Canadian could live and work there while being respected as a Canadian. This may not be the case in other parts of the world.
You’re also thinking the immigration policy is about some nationalistic cultural thing. It’s more of an economic consideration. Right now there’s a housing crisis in Canada and we’re in an economic crisis (because of you know who). It’s not economically feasible to have significantly more inflow of people than outflow right now. An open immigration policy with the EU isn’t going to happen tomorrow, and the housing situation and the relative inflow and outflow would be considered before adopting that kind of policy.
I agree! Although, I would love to see more health care workers from any country. Doctors and Nurses, please.
Yeah bit of a hangover from the covid crisis… a lot of doctors and nurses got burned out. The problem there is the various associations don’t want to recognize credentials from other countries to keep the demand for people with Canadian credentials high.
Nope. That was a whole lot of replying to not what I said. I have been repeatedly clear that I’m referring to nationalists. Those exist. They’re what I’m referring to.
AGM Ok, I read your comment again. I hear what you’re saying. You will see one of my previous posts that I would love and welcome doctors and nurses from any country/culture. I think you might be mistaken about who is able to get into Canada. Yes, we have had to back off on our immigration rules. Honestly, you must realize that. Grandmothers, Grandfathers, Nieces, Nephews, Aunts, Uncles. It really got to the point where anyone who was related to a naturalized Canadian could do the same. However, should our EU Associate go through, I don’t believe it’ll be any easier for them. I can give you all kinds of stories about Americans that applied to Canada, and were denied. Canada is tightening the rules, as they should. It’s not a free-for-all for Europeans. It’s trade relations. Get a grip…
If anything even comes of this. I do not think freedom of movement well be included as I don’t think the EU countries would agree to that, but we well see.
I personally have never experienced Elbows Up as nationalism, but as a response to nationalism.
I still buy Mexican produce, sometimes I buy French jam. I’m more likely to buy a German product that’s more expensive if the only other option is American. I’m buying more from a diversity of places than I was 5 years ago. I don’t want to be isolationist, I just don’t want one nation in particular to be a dick to us.
So from my perspective it’s never been nationalism. I’d also be interested in doing Europe stuff, since I’m not traveling to the States anymore, no dissonance required.
That’s fair. I see a lot of what I would consider nationalism, which I also think is natural in a case where people feel threatened by a force from outside, but it’s not everyone.