Honestly if you’d just said “Yes, I know my decision to eat meat is predicated on horrific suffering on an industrial scale, but I don’t care” I’d have at least a modicum of respect for you for acknowledging the choice you’re making rather than acting like other people are beyond the pale for bringing it up
yes, you do. Your diet requires humans to breed animals on factory farms: collecting semen from male animals and inseminating female animals. Those actions are mechanically the exact same thing as people committing the crime of bestiality. This is why most bestiality laws (and animal cruelty laws, for that matter) read something like “you can’t fuck or mutilate animals, unless it’s for a farming purpose”.
Getting sexual gratification from an act is not the crime here lol. Is this protestant brainworms or something? If now on starting tomorrow via some magical means, all humans started orgasming after biting into a steak, would it then now suddenly be morally wrong to consume steak?
The thread was somebody defending insemination of livestock, or at least trying to draw a distinction between bestiality and insemination because it is done to farm them rather than for sexual pleasure. My argument is that your intentions do not matter. Is the harm mitigated because you weren’t horny while doing it? Why is it more important to view the crime through the lens of the perpetrator rather than through the lens of the victim in this scenario? It’s a distinction without a difference.
I would argue there is a distinction between the two because bestiality is performing these actions for sexual gratification. Your overall point I do agree with, that the way we interact with animals in factory farms is sexual violence, but it is a different sort
Sure and that’s how the law categorizes it: your “purpose” when committing the act is what matters. I personally think the particular categorization of different purposes (so that economic reward is valid, gustatory sensual pleasure is valid, and sexual/sensual or sadistic pleasure is not) is arbitrary in a nakedly self-serving way. I have never seen any moral reasoning that one specific kind of sensory pleasure should justify sexual contact with animals but another should not; carnists usually fall back to arguments that eating animals is one way to satisfy a physical need. (Such arguments are of course inadequate to explain harm done simply to make food taste better, like restricting animal movement or gavage). In general we do give weight to purposes when people commit acts that they thought were good, or did not expect to result in negative consequences, so in theory intention is a valid thing to consider.
I personally reject the “we didn’t explicitly want this subset of results, but we took this action knowing full well it was going to cause these results” liberal apologia that we see for military collateral damage and such.
I don’t think all of this is wrong, but there’s a blending between discussing concepts and actual practice. “Is it wrong to harm animals for pleasure?” is a useful question, but separate from “is it wrong to fuck animals for sexual pleasure?” and both of these are distinct from “can certain kinds of pleasure justify harm generally?” I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong to put them together because you are making a good point about complicity in atrocity, but it is not the kind of conversation I want to have.
mhm. all reasonably different questions. I hew consequentialist, so I don’t really see why one’s state of mind (anticipating gustatory pleasure or experiencing sexual pleasure) while fucking the animal makes a moral difference. I think that the distinction you see between the first two questions is largely informed by custom: in pre-modern times a function of what was “normal”, and today a byproduct of how industrial agriculture sanitizes the process of raising animals for food to give us neat blocks of commodity on the grocery store shelf.
Tangential but you might find Why I’m Not a Negative Utilitarian interesting. I was gonna write something about utilitarian view of pleasure types but it’s not really important.
Good luck in the posting war against anti-intellectualism. Honestly I’m kind of surprised by the comments here. Since the issue affects almost nobody directly I feel like everybody should be able to dispassionately debate-bro about it even though it’s taboo.
![[CW: bestiality] Professional "moral philosopher" ponders whether it's OK to sexually assault animals, featuring AI art](https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/f26b2dce-7254-4537-acd1-5de623b591e0.png){kind=link}
huh what the hell does this bullshit have to do with anything
so carnists also condone bestiality?
what the fuck
What fucking solar system are you living in
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what the actual fuck is wrong with you
god yall are fucking gahhhh
WHAT THE FUCK
hexbear is great but this is a very bad moment from them
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so that means I fucking support this weirdo who wants to fuck animals? What the fuck does this have to do with this?
fucking weirdos
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i have only ever heard vegans extend the definition of bestiality to include actions that are not for the sexual gratification of the person.
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because your use of terminology is subcultural and the rest of us don’t think it applies to the situation
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oh shut the fuck up you nerd
nah, this ones on you sister
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There are two constants on hexbear.net, vegans will advocate for animals, and Catradora_Stalinism will [removed by mod]
Hi I eat meat but yo calm down
I think ill just block em and go back, yeah
yes, you do. Your diet requires humans to breed animals on factory farms: collecting semen from male animals and inseminating female animals. Those actions are mechanically the exact same thing as people committing the crime of bestiality. This is why most bestiality laws (and animal cruelty laws, for that matter) read something like “you can’t fuck or mutilate animals, unless it’s for a farming purpose”.
Don’t eat em, don’t fuck em.
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i don’t get sexual gratification from my food
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Getting sexual gratification from an act is not the crime here lol. Is this protestant brainworms or something? If now on starting tomorrow via some magical means, all humans started orgasming after biting into a steak, would it then now suddenly be morally wrong to consume steak?
no it’s the common usage of “bestiality.” outside of vegan standard english i guess.
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Find a better argument other than “Torturing and exploiting animals is okay as long as you’re not horny while doing it”
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The thread was somebody defending insemination of livestock, or at least trying to draw a distinction between bestiality and insemination because it is done to farm them rather than for sexual pleasure. My argument is that your intentions do not matter. Is the harm mitigated because you weren’t horny while doing it? Why is it more important to view the crime through the lens of the perpetrator rather than through the lens of the victim in this scenario? It’s a distinction without a difference.
I would argue there is a distinction between the two because bestiality is performing these actions for sexual gratification. Your overall point I do agree with, that the way we interact with animals in factory farms is sexual violence, but it is a different sort
Sure and that’s how the law categorizes it: your “purpose” when committing the act is what matters. I personally think the particular categorization of different purposes (so that economic reward is valid, gustatory sensual pleasure is valid, and sexual/sensual or sadistic pleasure is not) is arbitrary in a nakedly self-serving way. I have never seen any moral reasoning that one specific kind of sensory pleasure should justify sexual contact with animals but another should not; carnists usually fall back to arguments that eating animals is one way to satisfy a physical need. (Such arguments are of course inadequate to explain harm done simply to make food taste better, like restricting animal movement or gavage). In general we do give weight to purposes when people commit acts that they thought were good, or did not expect to result in negative consequences, so in theory intention is a valid thing to consider.
I personally reject the “we didn’t explicitly want this subset of results, but we took this action knowing full well it was going to cause these results” liberal apologia that we see for military collateral damage and such.
I don’t think all of this is wrong, but there’s a blending between discussing concepts and actual practice. “Is it wrong to harm animals for pleasure?” is a useful question, but separate from “is it wrong to fuck animals for sexual pleasure?” and both of these are distinct from “can certain kinds of pleasure justify harm generally?” I don’t think you’re necessarily wrong to put them together because you are making a good point about complicity in atrocity, but it is not the kind of conversation I want to have.
mhm. all reasonably different questions. I hew consequentialist, so I don’t really see why one’s state of mind (anticipating gustatory pleasure or experiencing sexual pleasure) while fucking the animal makes a moral difference. I think that the distinction you see between the first two questions is largely informed by custom: in pre-modern times a function of what was “normal”, and today a byproduct of how industrial agriculture sanitizes the process of raising animals for food to give us neat blocks of commodity on the grocery store shelf.
Tangential but you might find Why I’m Not a Negative Utilitarian interesting. I was gonna write something about utilitarian view of pleasure types but it’s not really important.
Good luck in the posting war against anti-intellectualism. Honestly I’m kind of surprised by the comments here. Since the issue affects almost nobody directly I feel like everybody should be able to dispassionately debate-bro about it even though it’s taboo.