Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
So many comments jesus. I ain’t reading all that. Free Palestine and Death to Israel.
This thread even 18 hrs later:
Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”
The fuck is wrong with you guys?
I think a poll or just reporting, blocking, and ignoring them would be better than “leave your comments below”. I’m exhausted and confused just trying to decipher them.
Very cool of dbzer0.
Such an excellent thread for filling out my block list
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Yay anarchists! 👍
Boo zionists! 👎Classical Lemmy.ml comment
I thought this was meant as a compliment until I saw “@feddit.org”, lmao.
Funny how you guys generalize ml users then get mad when people generalize feddit.org users
I thought .ml were disgusting authoritarian tankies, now also anarchists are tankies? Almost as if it was a left-punching slur all along :o
I meant the inability between distinguishing moderating hate speech and supporting genocide.
Lemmy.ml definitely has its problem with nuanced positions.
There is no nuance in settler colonialism and supermasist ideologies
This really is a great thread for finding people to block!
Especially since the .ml-ers are mostly Putin bootlickers and authoritarian fans. I hope real anarchists can see that.
But you don’t understand Putin is fighting NATO, he’s a hero! Who cares about the dead Ukranians, they deserve it for not wanting to be conquered by imperialist Russia.
Sorry, what was that? I can’t hear you when you’re all the way over in defederation.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social. Not because I support those views but because this means that many of the communities I’m subscribed to won’t be visible anymore from there. Personally I’ve not seen the problem in the mentioned communities but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine since I don’t have the energy for that.
Nice. Props to db0
The only issue with defederation from the ZioNazi bar is that I can’t see if they’re crying in here.
Notice how the ragebait, communication destroying comments and got’chas are coming from a handful of users in this thread (Cowbee, Riverside, etc.) Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left and who benefits from that.
Edit: ah and like clockwork, the “I now want to communicate reasonably” spiel. Not falling for that one.
Wow seems like all the bad actors got caught by this.
Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.
Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.
Also, as a tip: don’t answer the trolls and agitators. Leave them hanging, screaming into the wind.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Agreed. A bunch of general purpose instances with slight variations on ideology that are pretty much identical.
yeah it sucks. it sucks balls.
i have to deal with it IRL. It lead to me quitting some things I used to love doing because I was so sick of psychos telling me if I am not a extremist leftist who is angry and outraged 24/7 I must be a fascist/zionist/pro-genocide/anti trans/bigot/blah blah blah.
you sound charming, I hope you stay away from those things for everyone else’s sake
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
My favorite part is pointing out that most israelis are not white westerners, but from other middle eastern countries who were fleeing persecution in those countries and are more arab than western in terms of ethnicity and history.
But that doesn’t fit the nice narrative that all Israelis are white colonlizer/invaders from europe or something. Literally never had it acknowledged once, just denied and told that it is zionist propaganda.
No. The majority of Israelis are Ashkenazi Jews from Europe. They are European settler-colonists on occupied land.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis#Jews
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
- https://www.nbcnews.com/sciencemain/most-ashkenazi-jews-are-genetically-europeans-surprising-study-finds-8c11358210
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism
Edit to add: I took a peak at your modlog; it’s filled with fascist brainworms.
Saying Hamas is antisemitic is sure fire sign of being a Zionist.
Palestinians are a semitic people.
If you want to saw that Hamas hates Jews, well, when your entire life has been being bombed by planes with stars of David on them, while jackbooted thugs with stars of David on their shoulder kick in your door to kidnap your family members in the night, and settlers with star of David necklaces show up and claim your home and land by divine right, I can start to see where you develop feelings toward the people who carry the same sign.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim as they are so fucking desperate to do.
Antisemitic clearly means anti-Jewish. Sure it technically means all Semitic people, and as such a better word could have been used but it’s intended and in use meaning is very clear. Jewish people have been some of the biggest victims of Middle Eastern and European hate for thousands of years.
You’re doing the #AllLivesMatter of religious hate.
Maybe, just maybe, if Israel wanted the world to be a safer place for Jews they would stop associating a genocide with Judaisim
You probably already know this, but Israel wants the world to be a more dangerous place for Jews to justify Israel’s illegitimate existence and aggression. That’s why they conducted terrorist attacks against Ethiopian Jews, to convince them that they needed to move to Israel as it’s the only safe place for them… where they’re then met by deep-rooted racism.
notice how you worry about how palestinians defending themselves, but not about the millions of them killed and starved.
Spoken like someone that condemned the ANC as terrorists in the 80’s.
“Sure, apartheid is wrong, bit the people suffering it and fighting it are the worst” <— you.
What’s wrong with the term “leftist organization?” Educate, agitate, organize is the common saying, organizing is the fundamental task of leftists.
Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.
Seriously, imagine typing “there is often only ‘anti genocide and pro genocide’ in online discussions” and thinking “yes, I will post this and look like a very good and moral person”. Yes, if you’re not against genocide you’re for genocide. Yes, if you think supporting the resistance to genocide is antisemitic, you are a genocidal zionist. This type of “nuanced” “anti-zionism” (liberal zionism) is also widespread on feddit.org.
By fucking german law at that. And they enforce it too. Never again, as defined by nihlists with no soul serving the plutocracy while the far right takes their country from them and fixes elections while they are busy surrendering their people to tech.
One of them was extremely offended in another thread when I replied to them with “I was just following orders”.
What I think they meant was that people here only think about the genocide and thus declare the perpetrators evil (which they are) and the victims the good guys (hamas are not).
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
declare the perpetrators evil (which they are)
Correct.
and the victims the good guys (hamas are not)
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict. The resistance to the genocidal settler state are good even if they don’t measure up to whatever arbitrary standard of perfection you have in mind.
One side’s atrocities don’t justify the other side’s. Excusing your own group’s actions because they’re the good guys is far right thinking.
Bullshit framing designed to try to equate between the invading settler state (with overwhelming firepower) and the (often barely adult) native resistance just trying to survive and protect their homes.
In reality there’s more factors to this than just the genocide, and both hamas and israel are the bad guys in their own way. One is just worse than the other, but that doesn’t make the other good.
“Hemming and hawing over genocide is disgusting.”
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.
The world will be better when humans will be able to escape this manichean thinking.
You’re wrong, Hamas are in fact “the good guys” in this conflict.
Let’s agree to disagree there then. I wasn’t planning to convince you after all.
In this particular conflict, Hamas very much are the good guys (if we have to think in such childish terms) in the same way that the allies were the good guys in World War 2 despite the fact they were mostly genocidal empires themselves. Hell, Hamas are far less evil than almost every western government, especially the German one, because they aren’t actively supporting mass genocide.
You condemn all groups actually fighting against Isreals genocide. That is just supporting the Genocide with extra steps
ask an anti german what they think of muslims in the middle east :) it’ll be the most misanthropic thing you heard all day. anti germans are disgusting zionists and need to be shunned from leftist places. they are pro-genocide and there is no nuance to it. they are not part of the left, just delusional cosplayers
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
[…] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy […]
You
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
Again you
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
???people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism
This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.
You believe it is evil to resist Isreals imperialism. That’s Zionism
Yes, opposing the main resistance to zionism makes you a zionist. Glad we all understand each other.
Edit: not that you’ll see this, I can see piefed.social dropping my replies to you because you have me (or maybe my instance) blocked.
The German left, at least the loud one, is public ally dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
This is all nonsense and you are indeed a zionist. Thank you for making it clear to everyone.
That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions.
Thank you again for clarifying which side you are on.
“Is genocide bad? Who can say, it’s just so complex!”
Don’t be discouraged. Personally I don’t have the energy any more to endure the abuse of the mob (these “leftist” ignoramuses whose obsession with “Zionism” leads them to support literal fascism) but it’s important that somebody makes the points you’re making.
You should have been bullied more in school.
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Sometimes the further left extremes I’ve heard hear are indistinguishable from conservative Q-Anon. I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
They are very clearly distinguishable, just not to you yet. Until recently, you’d only ever heard disagreements coming from your right, so you confuse disagreements coming from your left with them.
- ‘Horseshoe theory’ is nonsense – the far right and far left have little in common
- Are the far-left and far-right merging together? That’s what the ‘horseshoe theory’ of politics says, but it’s wrong
Liberalism in fact has more in common with fascism than socialism: they’re both capitalist ideologies. Previously.I legitimately need to check users post histories to understand which extreme they are on
If you can’t tell the difference between “media companies serve the interests of their owners and managers” and Q-Anon, that might indicate a problem with you rather than with others.
Ain’t much difference between MAGA and tankies.
Examples?
The comment I replied to vs. this from QAnon page on Wikipedia.
The cabal is thought to cover up its existence by controlling politicians, mainstream media, and Hollywood.
Only difference is that your side is “right”
Billionaires/ruling classes owning the media for manufacturing consent is not a new idea, and even then, leftists/QAnon people have very different views on it anyway. Leftists don’t believe there is some secret cabal, the ruling class is very blatant. Right wingers believe in some deep state or the rothschilds, who are a jewish family, “control the narrative”, they don’t care about class struggle. This comparison makes very little sense.
Also-
QAnon centers on fabricated claims made by an anonymous individual or individuals known as “Q”. Those claims have been relayed and developed by online communities and influencers. Their core belief is that a cabal of Satanic,[3][4][5] cannibalistic child molesters in league with the deep state is operating a global child sex trafficking ring and that Donald Trump is secretly leading the fight against them.[9] QAnon has direct roots in Pizzagate, another conspiracy theory that appeared on the Internet one year earlier, but also incorporates elements of many different conspiracy theories and unifies them into a larger interconnected theory
I’m not seeing the relations to “left extremes” here at all. The horseshoe theory is a ridiculous, centrist concept. @davel@lemmy.ml 's comment has some good links.
I don’t believe the horseshoe theory. Far left and far right have a number of stark differences such as religion, economic policy, etc. I just believe that both sides are fringe cult-like environments, particularly when it comes to isolating yourselves and ideology control. Occasionally, I see other similarities.
Imo, far left isn’t clearly closer to the far right in most beliefs, except cult-like behavior
Only difference is that your side is “right”
lmao, you’re the perfect centrist. By your standard, “the Holocaust happened” and “white genocide in South Africa happened” are both equally valid statements. Do you see how ridiculous it is to just group statements by superficial similarity and treat them as equivalent regardless of the substance of the claims or the evidence?
I never said those were equal statements
You are reducing both sides to an extreme and extracting a single quote from both of them - “corporate media is lying to you to protect politicians preying on children” . You understand that one side is right and the other isn’t - where do you think the difference appears? Certainly not at the extreme surface level of a single quote you are picking.
All sides in WW2 were killing people, I literally can’t tell the difference!
The statement is that far left makes similarly culty statements like “X entity is hiding evidence that supports our views from the general public”. It’s the “everyone except us lies” part of the culty belief. My statement is that both far left and far right have fringe beliefs that are culty or close to it.
It’s very easy to distinguish if you actually act in good faith, which you clearly don’t
