The new Microsoftslop copilot key always sends the following key-sequence when pressed:

copilot key down: left-shift-down left-meta-down f23-down f23-up left-meta-up left-shift-up
copilot key up: <null>

This means there’s no real key-up event when you release the key --> it can’t be used (properly) as a modifier like ctrl or alt.

The workaround is to send a pretend key-up event after a time delay, but then you mustn’t be too slow / fast when pressing a shortcut.

tldr: AI took a perfectly working modifier key from you.

— edit —
Some keyboards apparently do the “right” thing and don’t send the whole sequence at once, you can remap those properly with keyd, see: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/issues/1025#issuecomment-2971556563 / https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/issues/825

copilot key down: left-shift-down left-meta-down f23-down
copilot key up: f23-up left-meta-up left-shift-up

this will still break left-shift + remapped copilot and left-meta + remapped copilot, but RCtrl remaps should work as expected

  • Fokeu@lemmy.zipEnglish
    1242·
    11 days ago

    Congrats Microsoft, you managed to enshittify a goddamn keyboard key.

    • Fizz@lemmy.nzEnglish
      63·
      11 days ago

      I reckon the co pilot key is used more than the key it replaced. I dont even know what that key did.

      • Redjard@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        16·
        11 days ago

        On laptops it usually replaces right ctrl, sometimes right alt.
        Both these are needed to make lots of shortcuts viable, or possible at all with one hand.

        right alt is also an importand 3rd shift layer for many languages’ keyboards, hence them replacing right ctr often instead of the less popular alt.

      • definitemaybe@lemmy.caEnglish
        4·
        11 days ago

        The open menu key. It’s the one I remap to Compose (for special characters, like Comp±-- to get —).

    • REDACTED@infosec.pubEnglish
      1·
      11 days ago

      You could even argue that bottom row is for command keys, not macro or function keys like F keys or print, pause, etc., but then again Fn key is literally called function

    • JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      43·
      11 days ago

      When was the last time you on purpose used the application key on your keyboard to open the right-click context menu so you could navigate it using the arrow keys? Because that is the key it replaced - Microsoft has demanded for the last 32 years that the two spaces between CTRL and ALT on Windows compatible keyboards are used for the Windows key, and the Application Key, so that people using one-button mice (or no mice) can use the Windows GUI.

      • morto@piefed.socialEnglish
        10·
        11 days ago

        Well… I use it. I find it faster to use than the middle click gesture in the touchpad and the touchpad’s buttons are awful to press, so I use the keyboard button and navigate with the touchpad

        • RisingSwell@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          4·
          11 days ago

          Is a middle click even an option on a touchpad? I get annoyed that I can’t even right click hold and then left click. Rip fishing minigames on trackpad

          • morto@piefed.socialEnglish
            4·
            11 days ago

            Sorry, I meant right click. By the way, tapping with 3 fingers usually works as a middle click, at least on gnome

      • SqueakyBeaver@piefed.blahaj.zoneEnglish
        3·
        11 days ago

        My laptop has a control key there. I know on some larger desktop keyboards there’s the application key, but I’ve not seen one on many keyboards from the last 10 years

      • [object Object]@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        11 days ago

        I’ve used it yesterday. Haven’t been at the desktop today, but will use the key when I get at it.

        Normally it’s mapped to alt in my setup, while alt is remapped to ctrl, but I haven’t gotten around to figuring out how to do that with Cinnamon. Meanwhile, Double Commander allows adding useful actions in the context menu, and Emacs has the commands menu (M-x) mapped to the ‘application’ key.

    • attero@discuss.tchncs.deOPEnglish
      20·
      11 days ago

      It’s arguably worse, because Samsung has full control over software, hardware, and firmware of their devices.
      Even if MS would like to fix this mess, they can’t.

      • [object Object]@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        11 days ago

        Theoretically I think they could redefine it as a new key instead of the combo — as is done with the windows and context-menu keys. That would allow it to be remapped properly.

        • Pup Biru@aussie.zoneEnglish
          2·
          11 days ago

          well that’s what they should have done but now what it’s implemented there are a lot more parties that need to come to the table to fix the mess… some hardware might not be able to fix the mess, but i’d be surprised if this shit show were implemented on hardware rather than firmware

          • [object Object]@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            11 days ago

            Eh, MS can just issue new requirements for their compatibility stamp, just like they did in the first place and many times previously. Newly produced laptop and keyboard models would have the fixed behavior, the same way they got the broken behavior.

            • Pup Biru@aussie.zoneEnglish
              2·
              11 days ago

              new ones sure but there are a bunch of these broken machines out there now: far more than there otherwise would be, because microslop forced the upgrade for windows 11

              i guesssss if they do it soon enough the existing models will still be in their support period and they’d kinda be forced to update, assume it’s a software or firmware fix

  • MagicShel@lemmy.zipEnglish
    28·
    11 days ago

    Did Microsoft demand vendors include such a button with those specs? If not, that sounds like a vendor issue, and I’d be looking at other vendors. Either way I’m happy to use keyboards/OSs without that “feature.”

      • brsrklf@jlai.luEnglish
        251·
        11 days ago

        So to be clear, this key sequence is just how windows interpret the key, the hardware is exactly the same and any other OS can still use it as the context menu key?

        Edit : oh, just saw the thing about the linux workaround. So no, they actually fucked it up on hardware level. Wow.

        • attero@discuss.tchncs.deOPEnglish
          31·
          11 days ago

          nope, the hardware / keyboard controller sends a complete key sequence instead of a distinguishable key-up and key-down event. The OS can interpret that sequence as it sees fit, but you loose the physical key-up signal when you release the key with your finger.

          • Corngood@lemmy.mlEnglish
            9·
            11 days ago

            That’s insane. Even if they did this intentionally to be as difficult as possible, they locked themselves out of being able to detect long presses?

            • attero@discuss.tchncs.deOPEnglish
              8·
              11 days ago

              I’ve made an update edit: Some hardware vendors fucked up when to send the key-up-sequence apparently so now every keyboard can behave differently. I don’t know if this makes the situation better or worse.

          • JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyzEnglish
            3·
            11 days ago

            Though any competent manufacturer, especially when talking about laptops, would still have the application key under FN (as is shown in that example image), and give the ability for users to select which one is the default function in the BIOS.

        • HyperfocusSurfer@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          2·
          9 days ago

          *on the firmware level, to be precise: keyboard polling is commonly done by the Embedded Controller, which is flashable (not by users, generally, tho, but during the uefi update, for example). Sometimes there are separate keyboard controllers, but those are not really common.

          So, if vendors want to fix this garbage, they can. Smth tells me, they don’t care, tho

      • MagicShel@lemmy.zipEnglish
        5·
        11 days ago

        AI PC / Copilot+ label

        Okay that sounds solvable, at least. I mean, I hate it, but it seems that a person is getting what they pay for here. Thanks for the heads up. Hopefully there will be plenty of non-AI PC / Copilot+ computers and keyboards.

  • Sims@lemmy.mlEnglish
    253·
    11 days ago

    “tldr: AI took a perfectly working modifier key from you.” - ‘AI’ ?? I can’t see how this is anything but Microshit and Capitalism that 'takes away" anything…

    • HertzDentalBar@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      111·
      11 days ago

      That’s the former right click button location. They took it away to implement a AI button. So it’s AI that’s done it, not literally but figuratively.

      • JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyzEnglish
        9·
        11 days ago

        They (Microsoft) did actually also originally implement it, the application key was added to Microsoft keyboards in 1994 along with the Windows key. It’s meant to give compatibility to the Windows user interface when your PC had a mouse with only one button. Don’t remember those being very relevant in the recent years.

        So it’s Microsoft deciding that their right-click button isn’t necessary after 31 years, and swapping it for a Co-Pilot/Windows Search button.

        • cheesybuddha@lemmy.worldEnglish
          4·
          11 days ago

          I use the the ‘right click button’ literally every single day. It’s super useful for not having to move between the mouse and keyboard for tasks.

          Also, this is on Linux, and I think it’s fair to say that the key has evolved to become a fairly standard part of keyboards and operating systems. Just because MS were the first ones to use it doesn’t give them some kind of say control over the idea, at least beyond the scope of their own hardware, and I don’t think anyone is arguing that they don’t have the right to change their own hardware. It’s just a bad decision.

        • [object Object]@lemmy.worldEnglish
          2·
          11 days ago

          The ‘application key’ is useful for remapping as a modifier, regardless of the OS. It’s recognized as a distinct key in both MacOS and Linux, just like the ‘windows’ key.

  • JayGray91🐉🍕@piefed.socialEnglish
    21·
    10 days ago

    Noted. Do not buy used laptops with microslop cancer button.

    A shame because they’re all still good hardware. Just don’t want to deal with the cursed button.

    • GalacticSushi@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      5·
      10 days ago

      Yeah I’ve bought my last couple laptops from my company’s asset disposal department, I’ve gotten pretty good deals and usually just need to replace the battery after a few years. Not looking forward to when their stock starts getting into the models with slop buttons.

        • Nalivai@lemmy.worldEnglish
          11·
          9 days ago

          Less than one percent of the keyboard being less-then-useful, that you can even make useful with some effort, is hardly a dealbreaker, it doesn’t even rises in severity to “bad” let alone “very bad”

          • msage@programming.devEnglish
            1·
            8 days ago

            Dunno about you, but I use every key on larger layouts, so this is definitely a hard no for me.

            As long as there are other options, this is a straight up downgrade for no benefit. So absolutely no.

            • Nalivai@lemmy.worldEnglish
              11·
              8 days ago

              I also use 100% of whatever I have. It’s just I don’t get how reducing it by less than 1% is a dealbreaker. It’s weird to me how sometimes people are hung up on some minor issue

  • QuandaleDingle@lemmy.worldEnglish
    191·
    11 days ago

    Just don’t buy an AI slop PC and get a Thinkpad, or a Framework laptop instead. Vote with your wallet. If you already own an AI PC, well, OP’s post might help.

  • texture@lemmy.worldEnglish
    18·
    11 days ago

    happy to be typing this comment on a framework laptop, where no such key is to be found.

    interesting post, and thanks for the info. i cant believe the crap MS pulls. Linux is easier than ever. Join us.

  • PolarKraken@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    15·
    11 days ago

    An embarrassing new low, even with the bars they’ve already set. And fitting, for this being the (egregiously multiply-) branded button to launch the shit show. Christ, this has been a fucking carnival lmao.

    Microslop has now regressed to implementing “features” very closely resembling - in sophistication and effect - my own bumbling, desperate, ignorant attempts at similar (“making a button behave like a macro”), using AutoHotKey, somewhere between 15-20 years ago.

    And do I understand that they both shipped that, on hardware, AND it’s broken so badly it can’t be easily remedied?

    I don’t know what to say. It’s like all the geniuses of comedy who died too young are doing this, all of it.

    (No shade whatsoever to AHK, it was, probably still is, awesome at its job!)

    Edit: suddenly realized it’s just on purpose, probably. Anyway, rant remains lol

    • TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.caEnglish
      152·
      11 days ago

      Base model Macbook Airs are very hard to beat for price:performance, especially now the new base model has 16gb of RAM. I’ve been to numerous local computer shops and felt and tried numerous Windows laptops that were around the same price and they all felt like flimsy plastic trash.

      The Mac Mini is also very good for its price and size. My dad is considering a base model Mini to replace his Windows office computer which is on 10 and reached EOL and he doesn’t want 11.

      • bagsy@lemmy.worldEnglish
        61·
        11 days ago

        Just the battery life alone will be enough to hook you on macs. The air is such a nice piece of hardware for the price.

      • kernelle@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        51·
        11 days ago

        When you realise the main difference between an Air and a Pro is active cooling on the CPU on the Pro, it makes sense why the Air is a powerhouse. Knowing the M-series is very efficient, you’ll only notice the difference on heavy loads. (I know the Pro has more options, but it only makes a difference in specific workloads)

        Paying the exuberant Apple tax for more soldered RAM and storage is something you’ll never see me do as long as there are ultrabooks without permanently attached storage.

      • otacon239@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3·
        11 days ago

        I have an M1 Pro that’s still going strong without issues, even with 8GB RAM. They’re insanely durable (repair issues aside) and MacOS is wildly good at resource management.

      • gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        2·
        11 days ago

        Can confirm. Decided to pop for a base MBA, but with 32g ram, about a year ago, and it’s fantastic. Unbelievable battery efficiency, completely silent (passively cooled), and still decently performant for when I want to compile something/do a cpu intensive thing. I’ve used MBPs as corp-issue dev machines for nearly a decade and a half now, so I’m quite comfortable in the ecosystem.

        I still have my old T14g2 running fedora, though (in addition to a plethora of non-mobile systems). Also snagged one of those silly-cheap Acer laptops with a fairly late model i3 in it, because it was $200 and had a SODIMM and m.2 slot, just as a spare/extra (it’s running kinoite)

      • wjrii@lemmy.worldEnglish
        21·
        11 days ago

        I was using a 2012 “vintage” minitower PC that originally came with Win7 as a crappy little plex/local FTP/Minecraft server, and I had been wanting to try MacOS after not seeing it for a while, so I got a Mac Mini with an M2 in it, and while I’ve hardly stressed it, it seems really nice. It’s small and completely silent, and if I did want to use it more, Apple has certainly tried to keep their walled garden pretty and well-organized.

      • [object Object]@lemmy.worldEnglish
        11·
        11 days ago

        After using Mac I’m never going back to pressing modifiers with the pathetic pinky instead of the strong thumb. It’s especially nice with an MS Natural keyboard with its gigantic alt keys, remapped to cmd.

        Supposedly some early keyboards had ctrl under the thumb, which is why Emacs employs it quite a bit. I wonder if other apps and systems also had the same logic initially, or borrowed it from Emacs, leading to ctrl being used as the main modifier in Windows and Linux.

      • thejml@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        01·
        11 days ago

        I prefer it, however there are apps for Mac to remap it if you like. I use Karabiner to remap my Capslock to Escape. I have Capslock and moving the escape key there is much more ergonomic and where i have it on my custom mechanical keyboards.

    • ageedizzle@piefed.caEnglish
      4·
      11 days ago

      What’s the linux experience like on a mac? Last time I tried to do that the sound didn’t work because Apple hadn’t released the firmware for the speakers

    • vacuumflower@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
      1·
      9 days ago

      Honestly X11 keystroke and modifier management is not that good. Because were it better, you could map any sequence to a different kind of action, possibly intercepting them. Instead you have keystrokes with modifiers, sometimes the keystroke is the modifier key alone. One can work around some things of this with, say, WM menus in FVWM called by one keystroke with modifier and then keybindings for menu items to have something like Emacs UX.