made this a while ago, thought it applies here too:
I’ll credit you, but I’m gonna use this meme format from now on. Thank you, this is absolutely beautiful.
MLs splintering and accusing each other of liberalism is a time honored tradition
To be fair, I don’t think anarchists are immune to sectarianism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friends_of_Durruti_Group
The Spanish revolution was quite a unique situation. It’s not like this keeps repeating among anarchist circles. The point being made is that this is a common occurrence
Unfortunately for the CNT, it seems like the sectarianism never ended.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederación_Nacional_del_Trabajo#Split_with_the_AIT_(2010–2018)
Also, isn’t ziq/Raddle super hostile to you/us for not being post-leftists? Like we definitely have sectarian tendencies. Edit: Which I think you/the Anarchist Flotilla is doing a great job at keeping at bay, hence why you don’t notice it so much.
There’s always going to be disagreements, even pretty acerbic ones, but overall I don’t see the same kind of downright hate between anarchists who disagree with each other, like I see from splintered ML groups. I’ve been in online anarchist comms since 2008 or so, and it’s always been like this, even in the massive shitstorms of reddit circa 2010 or so, people weren’t denying their opponent’s anarchism. ML factions otoh are known for sending fucking assassins at each other :D
This is kind of easily explained :
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Evil does not care if you’re not 100% evil. If you’re tainted even a little, that’s good enough for them.
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Good is obsessed with purity. If you are imperfect, or if you disagree on any point, they consider you tainted and play right into Evil’s hand.
And yes, Left vs Right is just Good vs Evil, I don’t think that’s an unpopular statement here.
People need to accept imperfect allies
Also what are you going to do with the Evil people? Better have them turn to your side. If they don’t have the option because they’ve been on Evil side then there’s no incentive for them to change, on the contrary. Does this mean criminals get out free? Of course not, it means hiring criminals after their sentence; treating them like people. Not throwing them out of society forever marked as Evil. Some won’t change for sure, but that doesn’t mean we should treat everyone the same and refuse to take what we can rather than have them support more Evil because they’re forever tainted and refused the opportunity to change
I think using the basic approach that everything, including evil, is on a spectrum.
My biggest issue with people that at least presents themselves very loudly and publicly as left is that they call anyone that mildly disagrees with them right wing. And to them right wing, even center right, equals extreme right equals Nazis.
I’m not sure whether these people are too dumb to recognize they paint themselves into a corner all the time, are useful indoors idiots for the extreme right or worse some ultra right wing uboots.
If you want to shift society to the left, which is needed worldwide, you can’t be ultra purist holier than thou in your approach.
tl;dr: Evil is not an absolute.
Yup, because nobody is perfect. Everybody fucks up, thats just life.
There’s no such thing as good or evil. Everyone thinks they’re good. And trust me neonazis are pretty obsessed with purity
thank you. yeah the “good is obsessed with purity” part made my skin crawl
I agree but Nazis will accept anyone until it’s time for their trip to the camps and chambers.
Also not true. These people have blood feuds and shootouts with each other mate. You can even see this playing out in real life on Xitter daily.
Proud Boys was literally headed by a black man.
What’s your point?
If they were so obsessed with purity, they wouldn’t follow a black man.
This isn’t how it works. Not every fascist is the same. This in fact why there’s constant infighting between the fash.
Yet we see one of the most destructive judges of the SCOTUS being black and the leader of the German right wing extremist party AFD being a lesbian in a relationship with a woman of color. These are just 2 examples on the top of my mind.
The guys on top are united by pure greed, the guys on bottom are united mostly by being brainwashed to perceive a common enemy.
The guys at the top share class interests. That’s what unites them, not ideology. The ones at the top just say whatever needs to be said (whatever will benefit the plutocracy) to get to the top. But they’re not united at all. As soon as cracks appear, they turn on each other. I just don’t see this unity the OP is talking about. The problem is not that “evil is united”. The problem is that it’s too easy to propagandize vast amounts of the population when one controls the narrative through wealth and centralized media.
I like to view it as Left vs Right is just People vs Machine.
That’s a badass way to view it and I’m here for it 💯
I’m happy you like it :)
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sounds like something a fuckin’ lib would say 🤨🤔
Communists and Liberals are natural enemies!
Like Fascists and Communists!
Or Social Democrats and Communists!
Or Anarchists and Communists!
Or Communists and other Communists!
Damn Communists! They ruined Communism!
It’s so frustrating. Time and again in democracies, we’re shown that most people are best served by the policies of the left. But the left keep losing with breathtaking consistency, because of ignorance and infighting. If the politically aware were able to compromise with each other enough to organise and campaign, they would be able to inform the politically ignorant enough to walk every election.
Communists and liberals should be able to find some common ground and just work from there, instead of focusing on their differences. This is what the right does, and that’s why it’s winning.It’s because the left are bad at propaganda (maybe on purpose). Really stupid ppl need rituals. The right provides those. The left doesn’t want to manipulate ppl and doesn’t want to be a cult or look conform. So they don’t unite under one banner.
The right has chants and new racist drinking songs every year. They like dressing up in uniforms, wave qestionable flags. This appeals to ppl who want to belong.
If a large group of leftist parties could agree on things like that, the differences would just be factions within a united group.
You know, like maga hats. Vague. Harmless at first glance. No difficult history. Unites the sheeple.
I dunno, the left does it differently. 1984 is one of the most acclaimed novels of the 20th century and it’s leftist propaganda. Star Trek is leftist propaganda. The Beatles are leftist propaganda. Mr. Rogers. The Muppets, countless other kids’ TV shows.
We’ve got all the best tunes, the best messages and the depth to back it up. We just need to stop disagreeing about stupid shit, and stop treating discomfort like it’s a war crime.
There are some fundamentals that we all agree on, like equality, the sanctity of human life and human dignity and the freedom to do what you want as long as it harms nobody.
That propaganda isn’t propagandy enough, or do you run around every day with a Star Trek com badge or wear a Star Trek uniform to protests? And even if you did, how willing would the Average Joe be to follow your lead? Further more, these are commercial franchises. You can’t have some company have the power to change the meaning of them.
Ok fair point. But I think that just any level of critical thinking is leftist propaganda in a way. Science says there is a gender spectrum, autism is real, the climate is collapsing, our current economic models don’t work, sociopaths tend to get into power, all of these scientifically verifiable facts are considered leftist. True art that asks you fundamental questions is leftist, because examining the human condition leads you to conclusions that abhor suffering. That can be graffiti or a scene in a Pixar movie.
I think my point is that the left don’t need manipulative propaganda, because we have truth on our side. And if we were able to rally properly, that would be enough.That truth doesn’t say “be one of us and be proud”.
Also, you have it reversed: We are not able to rally properly, because we don’t do manipulative propaganda. You have to get ppl off their asses nowadays. Most ppl are like really, really stupid. They need to be led. If we don’t do it, the fascists will. Also the regressives (often called conservatives) actively make ppl more stupid, because they know the left won’t harvest those sheeple.
It fucking does. I’m proud of who I am.
I’m not sure I agree that stupidity and lack of conviction go together. You don’t need to be able to do calculus in order to understand that hurting people is wrong.
Manipulating people into doing what you want them to do is a cunt’s trick. It introduces the kind of hierarchy that eventually fails.
I mean, I would be happy to work together, but historically speaking (almost) every time we did we were fucked over.
That’s true for the right as well. No one faction gets everything, or often anything it wants.
1984 is more anti-authoritarian propaganda, than leftist propaganda I would say.
Anti-authoritarian is a leftist stance, only one the MLs don’t follow.
It’s a different axis. The authoritarian left exists, hence the existence of tankies
In the current timeline, in the current atmosphere, if I can agree with someone 50.1% of the time, that’s good enough for now. After we get literal fucking fascists out of power we can have a debate about if Grannie and Grampa renting out their guest cottage to finance their diabetes medications count as the same kind of landlords and deserve the same amount of vitriol as Blackstone.
If leftists aren’t calling each other libs, then we’re calling each other tankies. Pick an insult and throw it at anyone that doesn’t want to do the same type of fighting Nazis as you want to do.
Tankie > Lib
Commies never question why vanguarding burojacketing disenfranchises solidarity 🤦
What the fuck is a borujacketing
borujacketing
Maybe alapakala meant bad jacketing?
Edit: Removed pronouns
That makes sense, I think you’re right.
I question it all the time and it’s exhausting to watch others fall for it.
Think we should move away from politics, and focus on the more practical, economic changes. Like helping each other have less workload, creating victory gardens, and so on.
Practical and economic changes are literally politics
Unless it’s a seemingly apolitical group of permaculture farmers, and the like, helping each other out.
But im an organized, near-industrial way.
Except leaderless, so no bribes and “accidents”.
Nothing to feel threatened by or latch onto, until the momentum is too strong.
100% agree.
Same 💯
Whatever shitlib
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Wow, what a lib take. You’re just as bad as the fascists /s
Ironically on lemmy it is the more “liberal” flavors of leftism really not wanting anything to do with the more hardcore leftists on certain instances, to the point that we have dedicated communities and users making it their digital purpose to further that goal.
Before someone jumps me over this, i’m not a tankie myself. I just think the nazis are a bigger problem right now and i wish those people would spend their efforts on that instead.
Before someone jumps me over this, i’m not a tankie myself. I just think the nazis are a bigger problem right now and i wish those people would spend their efforts on that instead.
That’s exactly why the tankies are a problem. They’re so anti-lib that they wind up helping the Nazis.
I’m not a Democrat myself, but I vote for them because I think Nazis are the bigger problem. This has led to multiple bans from certain instances. Those instances are the ones spending their efforts in the wrong direction, for now.
Libs straight up create the conditions that enable fascism. No leftist wants to partner up the with light-right.
And this community has rules against disparaging anti-electorialism.
Libs straight up create the conditions that enable fascism.
Which is what makes them preferable, in a two-party state, to the fulfilled fascists. Baby tigers grow into adult tigers, but if I have the chance to choose which one I’m locked in a cage with, it’s gonna be the baby.
And this community has rules against disparaging anti-electorialism.
Stupid rules, if you ask me. It is always preferable to try to nudge things in your favor, if even slightly. I’m an anti-electoralist in the sense that it’s obviously insufficient to enact actual change, and no one should be encouraged to rely solely on electoral reform; that would be equally stupid. But it is an available tool. Even if it only makes things slightly easier for all the other, more effective means of enacting change, that’s still a valuable tool.
I’ll quote Lenin
Whilst you lack the strength to do away with bourgeois parliaments and every other type of reactionary institution, you must work within them because it is there that you will still find workers who are duped by the priests and stultified by the conditions of rural life; otherwise you risk turning into nothing but windbags.
Whilst you lack the strength to do away with bourgeois parliaments and every other type of reactionary institution, you must work within them because it is there that you will still find workers who are duped by the priests and stultified by the conditions of rural life; otherwise you risk turning into nothing but windbags.
He’s advocating running a communist electoral party as a means to spread the communist message and gitate amongst the masses, not voting for Graham totenkopf Planter or Copmala Harris. Literally the opposite of the point your trying to make about “lesser evil voting”.
He’s advocating running what you can to reach the yokels. Sometimes that’s someone who once was so ignorant they accidentally got a totenkopf tattoo. Platner and Harris are further left than most of the masses are willing to go as it is. We’re fighting an uphill battle, and there are like a handful of proper options across the entire nation. You.work with what you’ve got, and we’ve got work ahead of us. That work isn’t going to get any easier if we keep trying to fight the lesser evil before the greater one.
If only anarchists and communists joined forces Lemmy and started making unfunny antifa memes, fascism would be defeated…!
That means reconsiling our shit and self awareness to be compatible and not try to crab buvkey when our primary differences are organizational theory, among those of us absolute fucking nerds who have read theory. I’m not sure the productivity/chilling the fuck out spectrum really comes into play as a terrain of struggle during emergencies.
Meanwhile cummunists call everyone they don’t like virgins.
Shut up virgin!
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They actually prefer Republicans in power, Trump in particular, because they harm America.
This is just something y’all say, it’s made up. On the rare occasions where I’ve encountered a Trump supporter on here I call them out the same way. I suppose I could go over to Truth Social and try to sell them on communism but I doubt they’d be particularly receptive (and you wouldn’t see it if I did), and besides, our people built the platform.
They want to divide the left and create litmus tests for DNC candidates that are impossible to achieve.
“Met with the news the Israelis delivered the most devastating bomb & artillery attack on W. Beirut lasting 14 hours. Habib cabled—desperate—has basic agreement from all parties but cant arrange details of P.L.O. withdrawal because of the barrage. King Fahd called begging me to do something. I told him I was calling P.M. Begin immediately. And I did—I was angry. I told him it had to stop or our entire future relationship was endangered. I used the word holocaust deliberately & said the symbol of his war was becoming a picture of a 7 month old baby with it’s arms blown off. He told me he had ordered the bombing stopped—I asked about the artillery fire. He claimed the P.L.O. had started that & Israeli forces had taken casualties. End of call. Twenty mins. later he called to tell me he’d ordered an end to the barrage and plead for our continued friendship. Spent rest of day meeting with Congressmen on Tax bill.”
Diary entry of Ronald Reagan, August 12, 1982.
Don’t try to tell me supporting an end to the genocide is “impossible.”
Notably, the MAGA grifters benefiting from this division are unbridled by these requirements.
No they fucking aren’t.
Democrats completely failing to pass the Less Genocidal Than Regan Challenge
These are the same people who started the whole “Genocide Joe” mantra in order to breed apathy on the left.
Were you literally born yesterday, or are you intentionally “forgetting” that the post October 7th phase of the Gaza Genocide started under Biden and was funded by Biden’s administration?
It doesn’t seem to matter that Trump wants to kill or displace every Palestinian and turn their home lands into a resort.
Well it doesn’t seem to matter to you that Biden wanted to do the exact same thing but in a “norm-preserving” way.
No badjacketing allowed here. Even if it’s against instances and not people.
Oops, ran afoul of an extremist instance admin.
What the hell even is “badjacketing”?
read and also Read the instance rules
Yeah, it’s especially obvious when you call them out on how silly or ridiculous their take is and they just come back at you with some extreme non-sequitor that does nothing to engage with the argument you make. I’m sure there are some “real” people on those instances, but they’re definitely drowning in the flavor-aid at this point.
Dehumanising people for disagreeing with you and being racist towards Chinese and Russian people is so amazingly leftist of you. I wish I could be this principled and progressive.
Yeah, here’s a great example. Claiming anything op or I said is racist is wild. And also, Russia and China both have very well known state-sponsored disinformation/trolling campaigns running around online, so it would be expected that you would find dishonest accusations of “dehumanization” all while these trolls are merely “disagreeing”. That shit sells with the terminally online left and big-brain centrists, which is why they push that rhetoric. The worst part is you never know if it’s one of the state-sponsored professional trolls, one of the real people caught in the echo chamber, some rando dickhead that thinks it’s funny, or maybe someone who is using terrible translation methods.
Yes I agree everyone who doesn’t believe everything ever said about china and Russia is State sponsored or brainwashed and anyone pointing out how that is cpuld easily be dehumanising is also state sponsored or brainwashed. Really getting more and more leftist, principled, and progressive with each post. Fuck investigation, criticism, and debate true principled leftism is all about fedjacketing and bot jacketing.
Russia and China both have very well known state-sponsored disinformation/trolling campaigns running around online,
So does the US but I’m not about to call you or any of the idiots I see running around spreading blatant falsehoods CIA or NSA or brainwashed because that’s shitty and unhelpful.
You know, I can’t help but wonder if you and I truly disagree with one another on this particular subject. On top of that, I think it’s important to point out that we certainly have much more in common with each other than we do with our own political “leaders”. So I find it interesting that this particular conversation has devolved into criticism of state-sponsored bullshit at each other. While it’s certainly true that every major country in the world sponsors bullshit online, I think the number of actual propagandists is wildly overestimated, and the efficacy/subtlety of rhetorical propaganda is wildly underestimated. Hence how those in power are able to get people, who would otherwise recognize their common struggle, to be at each other’s throats instead of their common enemy. No one is immune to propaganda and I think we all tend to habitually forget that about ourselves.
Kind of like how Newsome and Trump called each other communists.
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Did Newsome really do this? Fucking idiot (I mean Newsome, just to be clear).
Looks like something a liberal would do
