- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmit.online
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I prefer to cut the pinky finger off of infants instead. It hasn’t hurt them at all not having a pinky finger, it’s not the whole hand just the tip. And it’s not just cosmetic because I dislike pinky fingers aesthetically, it’s healthier too, do you know how many people get pinky finger infections every year?
That makes sense, but are you also taking the girls, slicing the webbing between the fingers, and sewing their fingers together, so they don’t hold hands before marriage?
It should be illegal, thank goodness it’s finally being considered
Do you think Kid Starver will get permission from his boss Satanyahoo?
It shouldn’t be any more illegal than any harmless cosmetic procedure.
The last thing you want is unsupervised and unsanitary procedures done by a religious zealot.
Outlawing circumcision sends you down the same road as outlawing ear piercings or abortions or transgender surgery. You’re guaranteed to do more harm than good.
It is not a “harmless cosmetic procedure.” It’s more akin to ritual scarification or removing something like a lip, eyelid, or nose. It destroys nerve endings, causing a permanent loss of sensitivity, and the head of the penis is a mucus membrane that the foreskin is meant to keep moist and protect from damage. Most people had it done before they were old enough to be aware of the difference, but those who had it done later in life often report things like a reduction in the ability to feel sexual pleasure.
Medically necessary circumcision or somebody choosing to have it done is one thing, forcing an amputation onto a baby is entirely different. It’s like forcing a trans person to go through the wrong puberty: unwanted and permanent physical changes that can take years of therapy and medical procedures to heal from.
There’s more reasons to have it done. It’s ultimately something that parents should only consider if they have a history of urinary tract issues since often times foreskin can cause issues like UTIs to be more frequent.
Also, as a male with a circumcised dick I haven’t needed therapy for it. So comparing it to a trans person is kind of rude to the trans community. It’s also straight up not a big deal. My parents made decisions they felt were right at the time. Life goes on. I’m doing the same with my child and the hope is that I make more good decisions than bad.
I’m trans and I brought it up for a couple of reasons: first, Weevil brought up gender affirming surgeries in regards to trans people as part of some slippery slope argument. Secondly, trans medical issues tie very well into my exceptions that I mentioned in the second part of my comment - medical necessity and consent.
You may not have any issues with being circumcised, but there are plenty of men out there who do. To the point that there’s a “foreskin restoration” process that involves using clamps and rubber bands to yank on the skin of your penis until it stretches into some resemblance of a foreskin. It doesn’t reverse any of the consequences of circumcision, but some men at least feel less dysphoric after doing it. I myself thought that my dysphoria was related to being circumcised before I learned words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria.” Still not a fan of what was done to me, though. Enough to weigh in on conversations around the subject in the way that I have.
Generally, I think it’s a situation of “people don’t miss what they never knew they had.” There’s plenty of data from men who were circumcised later in life reporting a loss of sensitivity and difficulty with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post procedure compared to before. And this is why I compare it to being forced through an unwanted puberty. Permanent physical changes that you do not consent to. A baby cannot consent to having their genitals permanently altered. And a trans kid unable to access puberty blockers is as capable of preventing an unwanted puberty as a baby is capable of fighting a doctor/Rabbi/priest/etc.
Now for the exceptions: consent I’ve kinda already talked about, but if you understand the consequences and want to do it, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to anymore than somebody who wants to get a Prince Albert or a Jacob’s Ladder. And the big one, medical necessity. There are a number of reasons that it would be medically necessary, and they’re all valid regardless of the age at which they appear. Phimosis is a real thing that can hit at pretty much any age up to post puberty. I once worked with a poor kid who had to get it done for that reason at the age of 18. Although, based on a comment I saw elsewhere in this thread about the number of babies who die from UTIs related to circumcision, there may be some room to talk about what strictly is and isn’t “medically necessary.”
Basically, if your doctor says that you need to for health reasons or it’s your own informed choice, go right ahead. But if you’re forcing it on a baby due to peer pressure from the dead or because of some sense of “my dad hit me and I turned out fine,” then that isn’t right and should not be considered kosher.
Great insight!
I would add, though, that you absolutely can miss what you never knew you had, even if you don’t know you’re missing it. (Else, why the concept of eggs?) I have seen several intact men in these communities say that their primary sexual sensation comes from their foreskin. Say you were one of those men, and had your primary source of sexual sensation amputated at birth. You could go through much of your life knowing that something was “not right” with sex, but not knowing what.
I completely agree and experienced it myself (missing what you don’t have). I just meant in the terms of a bunch of replies that I’ve gotten in here to the tune of “I’m a cis guy who was circumcised at birth and it doesn’t bother me at all.”
There’s the possibility of something akin to how some trans people experience permanent low-grade dysphoria and it affects their frame of reference. Basically, if we were to map the feelings of dysphoria out on a scale from 0 to 10, the average person would be at a 0 under normal circumstances, but some people are born at a 2 or a 3. So to them, a 5 would be the average person’s 3, and experiencing a 0 would be like getting glasses for the first time and realizing that trees have individual leaves and this is how everybody else sees the world. If you can only reach a 6 on a scale of how enjoyable an experience is while the average person can hit a 10, how would you have the frame of reference to know that you are or aren’t missing something when you’ve never felt a 7 or above? So these people saying that they weren’t negatively affected could just be mistaking a 6 for a 10 and there’s no way for us or them to know for certain.
You seem incapable of thinking of anyone besides yourself.
BS
removing something like a lip, eyelid, or nose
That’s absurd and you should know better. Tell someone who had their nose removed that “it’s just like circumcision” and see how they respond.
They’d probably respond similarly to telling somebody who was circumcised without consent and doesn’t like it that it’s just a harmless cosmetic surgery. Or telling a trans person forced to experience the wrong puberty that it isn’t a big deal/we can’t allow trans kids to go on puberty blockers because they might regret it (despite the fact that all the effects of puberty blockers are reversed by…stopping taking them).
Source: am trans, was forced through the wrong puberty, and was circumcised without consent as a baby and hate it. Did you know that there are people out there so traumatized by being circumcised as a baby that they willingly use clamps and rubber bands to slowly stretch out the skin on their dick until it looks like a foreskin again? The info on how to do it is easily accessible online and the tools are easily purchased. I know this because I discovered it and considered it not long before I discovered words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria” and found out that there were words for feelings that I did not have the language to understand before.
I used those specific body parts as examples for a few reasons. Namely, they’re all designed to protect mucus membranes and keep them moist, like the foreskin. Removing them would also be permanent and result in negative effects - like how circumcision causes nerve damage and desensitization. There really isn’t a great comparison, and those who had it done as a kid don’t know what they’re missing. We do have plenty of reports from people who had it done later in life, though, and there’s plenty of data on the loss of sensitivity and struggle with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post-circumcision.
I guess the closest thing would be if people were ritualistically shooting lasers into their babies’ eyes to damage the lenses so that they needed glasses or something. Some people just like the way that glasses look. I knew a guy who didn’t need glasses and wore a pair without any lenses in them just because he liked the way that they looked. But given the choice between glasses and 20/20 vision, I’d personally take the 20/20 vision, thanks.
If we started doing it at birth and told them it was normal, then yeah its the same.
It should not be legal. It is a cosmetic surgery forced upon children.
Cosmetic surgery should not be banned on children. What is up with the UK and wanting to criminalize everything?
Cosmetic surgery should not be banned on children.
Did you listen to yourself?
Do you even know what braces are for?
You consider braces surgery?
Tooth removal, sure, braces?Surgical Orthodontics has been around for a while.
But it’s cosmetic so we need to outlaw this, too? Because reshaping the jaw of a minor should be a crime?
The topic is child (cannot consent, hell in some cases cannot talk yet because too young) circumcision, you are talking about puberty+(can semi-consent: can decide who to live with in family seperation for example) issues?
I agree about the black market but perfect is the enemy of good?
Also harmless? WTF
There’s lots of things that parents do to their kids without their consent. I’d argue it’s worse to share their face on social media than to circumcise due to the true dangers of predators usage of technology. That doesn’t mean I think parents should be considered abusive if they do. That said, this is in the UK so I don’t have a horse in that race.
This is your fantasy. Sharing their face on social media is less dangerous than biking to a friend’s house
Depends on where you live.
No no it doesn’t again outside of your fantasy. Almost all harm that comes to kids unfortunately comes from people who are close to said kid.
Did you think there are random people on facebook waiting for a picture of a kid so they can somehow find that kid? Your perspective is demented.
What fantasy? Check who you rely to.
Kids bicycling is perfectly safe around where i live.
Posting kids’ photos on the internet is never safe unless you take serious precautions (like covering the whole face).Btw OP’s post is about child mutilation, not photos.
If the parents were made aware that its abusive and do it anyways then yes its abuse. Some people will question things naturally and thats fine, others will need information brought to them directly and thats also fine.
We should expect parents to put effort into making the best decisions they can with the information they have available.
cannot consent, hell in some cases cannot talk yet because too young
Again, people get their baby’s ears pierced all the time. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg on parent approved medical procedures. If circumcision upsets you, how do you feel about ear tubes, tonsillectomies, and cleft pallet repair?
I agree about the black market but perfect is the enemy of good?
I would say the cost of criminalization far outweighs the benefit.
People should not be piercing their baby’s ears too. Neat that you used the same argument Republicans use use against gay marriage. We don’t see your kind here to often.
People should not be piercing their baby’s ears too.
People shouldn’t be arrested for piercing a babies ears either.
Having the police kick down your door and drag you to a cell over this shit is not an improved outcome
How are people going to be dragged to a cell for getting a procedure done that no Dr will do again?
That’s the whole problem. You won’t have doctors doing it. You’ll have rabbis doing it.
How? Its child abuse.
You are truly sick with how much it’s important for you to chop off babies dicks. You are defending a barbaric stupid meaningless ritual with such ridiculous arguments, why?
Having children ears pierced should also be criminal, but at least with ear piercing it doesn’t do any damage and can be removed later, as opposed to having their genitals mutallated by a religious nutjob for nothing.
Fact is, this would die out if not forced on helpless babies at 8 days old because no sane person would want to inflict this on their body unless theres a very good medical reason (which there is none for most of people).
All the examples you gave stem out from the person’s own decision or due to medical necessity.
I would argue that people who support this fucked up ritual should also be criminalized.
how much it’s important for you to chop off babies dicks.
It’s sick to arrest people. The entire criminal justice system in the UK is a nightmare of abuse and neglect.
Anyone who would advocate finding new reasons to expose more people to it is deranged. Anything you think you’re protecting people from pales in comparison to expanding the scope of your miserable fascist police state
The cost of criminalizing it is virtually nobody does it because they don’t want to lose their license or go to jail this seems pretty cheap
Rabbis will continue to perform the surgery in secret, in the same way piercings and abortions and transgender surgery continues in the face of criminalization.
You can’t keep such secrets at scale at all. Abortions can be performed by giving someone a couple of pills whilst not being visibly pregnant and thereby avoiding life changing, ruining, or sometimes ending consequences of pregnancy.
It is damn near impossible to keep people from getting abortions because we give women so many reasons to have them. Compared to that almost all circumcisions would stop because it would be impossible to hide any substantial portion of the pop getting or giving them.
You are arguing we shouldn’t enact a policy that would end 99.9% because somewhere someone would be doing 0.1%
Literally the same thing that female genital mutilators say about their ‘cultural right’ to circumsize their daughters.
What are kids anyway in your eyes beyond property that parents should have the right to permanently brand with their mark of religion.
Literally the same thing that female genital mutilators
If you knew anything about the subject, you wouldn’t be saying this.
Can you legally get any other cosmetic surgery on a less than 1 yr old?
BS argument.
And the woman should have their vagina mutilated too for the same then right?
Let’s clear the roads between 8-10 PM so we can have some car racing and donuts.
And take your now legal guns and drugs too, we can have a fun evening of supervised shooting and meth!
They can choose to do it once they’re over 18.
Well, yeah. I mean, take a step back and forget about religious justifications and appeals to some nebulous ‘tradition’ for a moment. If I ran around and took a scalpel to the genitals of baby boys without a valid medical reason, I’d hopefully swiftly find myself locked up for a long, long time.
Well, of course, that’s crazy behaviour.
But if you did it in a religious ritualistic ceremony and sucked the blood off the tip of the babies dicks afterwards, well that wouldn’t be weird now, would it.
You could even call it “Metzitzah B’peh” and it would happen so regularly and kids would get herpetic infections from the mohel’s so often (and sometimes even dying) that the New York Health department would have to issue warnings about it, and it would still not be weird, even when the families of the babies affected would refuse to name the mohel’s to allow the health dept to investigate and have them banned from performing the practice on future babies.
It’s genital mutilation. It’s been done for religious reasons, cultural reasons, social reasons, for slavery reasons, and more.
But cutting up babies’ genitals for any reason except medical intervention for relevant pathologies is genital mutilation.
I’ve had it done to me. It’s only helped me.
Having not experienced otherwise, how would you know?
How could you know either way?
I don’t know how it feels to never have my hair cut. It’s only cultural to get one’s hair cut regularly; but most people do as they feel it helps them look and feel better.
Sounds like it was medically necessary then which they’re saying is ok.
And thus you have a deep psychological need to defend the barbaric practice.
But there is a medical reason! It’s to make masturbation bothersome. It would really upset the humors you know.
Didn’t work on me.
Have you had your humors tested by your barber?
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This is like telling people who get wisdom teeth extractions have been mutilated.
Naw. We’re okay.
I don’t think that’s a valid comparison. For people who need wisdom teeth extractions, leaving them in can end up painful and for some even leave them with unable to fully close their mouths to chew.
Nothing bad is going to happen if you leave a babies penis alone.
I had braces growing up and my wisdoms were growing in at an angle. They would have crowded my teeth and cause pain if I didn’t remove them.
So you want to rip them out of babies? Gotcha
You can’t
Of course you can, it’s just stupid. It was a retorical question.
Here’s what baby teeth look like, the wisdom teeth are all alone on the outskirts:
Does removal actually prevent teen growing during the time when the rest of your adult teeth grow? I really wasn’t sure that they were special in this fashion
If you want to go the teeth route, removing the molars or canines is a better comparison. There are medical reasons why this might be necessary, but to rip out a baby’s teeth that have yet to grow in with a pair of pliers for ritualistic reasons is not the same thing at all.
Circumcision destroys nerve endings and can cause permanent scarring, potentially dramatically reducing the ability to feel sensations. The head of the penis is also a mucus membrane and the foreskin is meant to both keep it moist and protect it from damage. Have you ever had dry eyes or the inside of your nose dry out? Imagine cutting off the outside of your nostrils or part of your eyelids so that it was like that all the time.
If somebody wants to have it done, that’s fine. That’s their choice to make, just like getting a tattoo or piercings is. But forcing it on somebody without it being strictly necessary for medical reasons is cruel. It can be very traumatic. If it wasn’t, “foreskin restoration” - the act of using clamps, pulleys, and rubber bands to stretch the skin of the penis out into a fake foreskin - wouldn’t be a thing.
I still have an impacted wisdom tooth, and it’s okay. Everybody should keep theirs.
I’m pissed off someone did this to me without my consent as a baby.
That’s such an understatement but we’re taught it’s normal
How has it harmed you? I’m also circumcised, and it’s only helped me.
You have fewer nerve endings in your penis. I’m curious how it’s helped you.
Well, if you consider his overall physical form, from a purely mathematical/ratio point of view. He is now less of a dick.
Not sure if this is Penis related, but I get the feeling he is more of a cunt.
I was going to say pussy for compirulating to some bullshit we don’t need like he is some kind of republican
There are not many positive words for female genitalia but pussy usually is (excluding the link to cowardice).
I wanted no confusion that I was being insulting.
I don’t think you are thoughi can only speak as a man. Also there are plenty of words for vagina that are not bad. We just dint use them anymore.
‘possible’
Cutting a bit from an unconsenting baby’s body. It’s insane.
Shouldn’t cut the umbilical cord either without consent from the baby.
The umbilical cord falls off on its own after some days. It’s different.
I highly doubt this will happen, unfortunately.
All it takes is certain lobbyists and press saying it’s anti-Semitic and/or islamophobic and it’ll be dropped in a heartbeat.
Religious extremists need to join the 21st century. It angers me that we did such a great job of shifting away from the church having a stranglehold on our lives and laws, only to then accept shit like this. Freedom of religion should be about believing what you want, not doing what you want.
Fingers crossed, though.
We should make gelding legal, for people who think circumcision should be legal.
Good. Stop mutilating babies.
This needs to go the way of foot binding. It’s such an evil practice.
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I don’t see how this will see the light of day given sensitivity towards Judaism at the moment. Unfortunately a lot of people think that anything which conflicts a religion has a different standard and that a little bit of abuse is then ok.
sensitivity towards Judaism at the moment
Judaism and (some of?) its daughter religions - Islam also carries out this practice, and if anything Islam is even more protected by the state.
As many know, Islam also carries out FGM, which is indisputably worse for the victim than male circumcision. Now, there is already a specific criminal offence for FGM, strengthened by the Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003. This makes it illegal to perform FGM in the UK or to take a UK national or permanent resident abroad for FGM.
In over 20 years, only a handful of cases have been brought to trial. The first successful conviction for FGM in the UK did not happen until 2019, and even now there are typically less than 10 prosecutions per year. There are thousands of cases identified every year, (but it’s not often clear how many of those are recent).
My point is that while this suggested new law is welcome, it is unlikely to result in any significant reduction in religious child mutilation.
Wait wait wait… Islam is more protected by the state? Can you go into detail a bit there please?
FGM is a relatively rare practice (it’s not mainstream in Islam as a whole) and so outlawing it doesn’t a bunch of mainstream doctors and religious leaders to go “you know what, it’s not worth going to jail” whereas a circumcision ban very well could
But my point was that currently the government is very sensitive about antisemitism and less sensitive about islamophobia. Maybe this was always the case, but it certainly is right now, so for that reason a change like this isn’t going to happen at the moment
I remember seeing a TED talk about this which very much pointed to FGM being a central african problem, yes the majority of people doing it Muslim nations, but there are christian nations doing it too like Etheopia and in places like nigeria that have diverse religious backgrounds, christians practice it too. for example, google tells me 25% of nigerian catholic women have been circumcised.
When you go outside africa, yuou find the majority of cases are eithert from a country right next door in the middle east. or from somewhere further away, but by people who have emigrated from said central african or middle eastern country.
There is Indonesia, with its high fgm rates exclusively among muslims there, efforts have been made to regulate/ban/mitigate (making the act symbolic, rather than actually physical) over there and some other nations would do well to nose over their efforts.
Thing is, fgm predates both islam and christianity. And its a mistake for anyone to attatch a specific culture to a specific religion. Thats as accurate as attaching a specific proffession to a religion. Oh my car mechanic is Jewish, therefore all Jews are car mechanics, crikey, Israeli cars must run forever. No it means the manufactures get lazy because they assume everyone can fix even complex faults, ah but they won’t be able to get away with that, they are all trained mechanics so they could spot lazy design a mile off and vote with their wallet.
What a ridiculous discussion eh? well its no less ridiculous than when somebody invokes ‘muslim culture’ as a thing in their argument. Anyway, FGM is a cultural thing, not a religious thing.
my point was that currently the government is very sensitive about antisemitism and less sensitive about islamophobia
Your “point” makes no sense given that Islam also carries out male circumcision. In fact, the vast majority of non-medical male circumcisions in the UK are carried out by Muslim parents.
Does this change your view? Now you know this, do you now think that the government will actually implement a male circumcision ban after all?
No? It only takes one religion that the government is sensitive to avoid pissing off for them to not do something.
Just say arabs do it. /s
How can they defend Metzitzah B’Peh though?
The UK possibly doing something good? What timeline is this.
Broken clock yadda yadda.
The UK has been doing plenty of good, just look at the workers rights bill, renter’s rights bill, expansion of free school meals, expansion of breakfast clubs, massive increase in infrastructure investment, banning single use vapes, massive increase in tree plantations, massive increase in green energy/nuclear projects, big increase in pothole-filling, nationalisation of rail, quasi-nationalisation of steel production, large increases in the minimum wage, restarting SureStart, ending the two child benefit cap, getting closer to Europe again, extensive Ukraine support, etc.
It’s just that there’s also been a handful of bad things (e.g. OSA and other bits). And we all know what the billionaire-owned press and social media who are desperate to get the Tories/Reform in will focus on.
E: apparently some people hate those things. But I think they’re pretty good.
Don’t worry, our government will somehow manage to make everyone hate the idea then U turn on it in 6 months.
Fucking finally!
YES PLEASE!
I do worry this will turn out yet another case of “Right Thing, Wrong Reason” like the gov keep fucking doing, again and again
Red Tories appealing to bigotry rather than cause unnecessary mutilation is a bad thing
Sadly just anti Muslim hate more than anything else
I was unaware muslims do circumcision.
Interesting self own but ok
The reason it’s not illegal is that another religion does it, and they have way more clout.
So Kid Starver may have to learn to suck uncut zionist dick?
