US Democratic Senator Mark Kelly has said he will “seriously consider” running for president in 2028 as he battles the Trump administration over a video in which he urged military personnel to refuse illegal orders.
The Arizona senator, who was accused of “seditious behaviour” by Donald Trump over the November clip, said he and his wife, Gabrielle Giffords, received “many” death threats after the president’s comments.
“We get them on a weekly basis now,” he told BBC Newsnight. “We had to get security to protect us 24 hours a day.”
Asked if he was considering a White House run, the retired Navy captain said he was considering it “because we’re in some seriously challenging times”.
He would be better than Newsom, but worse than Khanna or AOC. I don’t like his lib-brained gun control perspective though.
Heads must roll for what the trump regime has done already and the billionaires and corporations that allowed and backed it. So any candidate must be the driving force of implementing those consequences, or get out of the way.
Personally, what I am hoping for is a ticket with AOC as president, and Mark Kelly as vice. He can help AOC with military issues, while she can guide the nation towards some flavor of Democratic Socialism.
I think we will see a civil war, so we definitely need a military expert in a major role. Kelly should do nicely.
Personally, what I am hoping for is a ticket with AOC as president, and Mark Kelly as vice.
I’d rather AOC take over the Senate and replace Schumer as majority (minority for now, but majority forever) leader. She’d have more influence for longer than just being a president.
As far as I know, there’s no reason that a president couldn’t return to the Senate after their term is up. So why not both?
Ben Franklin did it.
That’s fair. IMO, the presidency is more important in this political environment, since setting the direction and tone of the nation is important.
It sucks that we don’t have lots of a high-profile progressives, because the spread of competent and fiery people is a bit too thin. Our agenda shouldn’t have tradeoffs about who is best for what.
It’s been the bureaucratic underpinnings that have kept the country recognizable for now. I would argue that the left needs more long term, behind the scenes work, similar to what the right did for decades before Trump came along.
IMO, the presidency is more important in this political environment, since setting the direction and tone of the nation is important.
Maybe. What’s more important in setting the shape of the administration? The dough (cabnet, legislative agenda, international stance) good for just 4 years? Or the mold that dough must pass through?
It really depends on whether a president gets two terms, and now the possibility of a civil war. Senate is good if you expect normalish times…which is iffy. I think the midterms will decide what tack AOC and friends will follow.
If it were possible, I wouldn’t mind Sanders being the 2028 candidate, if he still has a sound mind and the conditions allow for a peacetime president. Setting aside age, I kinda worry that he lacks sufficient hostility to prosecute the Epstein class - because he is a gentle dude, IMO.
He seems ready to fight, and seems fearless. He has my vote if he starts demanding trials, convictions, and jail time for the traitors and pedophiles.
Not in the Epstein files.
Won’t trigger misogynists.
Won’t trigger racists.
Astronaut,
Only worth about 20 mill, might resonate with middle class.
They’ll try to rail him for telling the military not to follow illegal orders, It would be an interesting run.
He’s a super safe pick, that’s pretty clear. Safer than Gavin Newsom, imo.
However, I’d like to see what his platform is before I make up my mind about him. Amnesty for the fascists is a complete non-starter for me. Trump and his cronies must be punished. He needs to be clear about that on the campaign trail, and not weasel his way around it like Biden did.
Yeah, the best thing Newsom has going for him is hecking Trump. History is cagey.
Looks like kelly’s voting history is pretty passe except:
Yea Border Act of 2024
The Border Act of 2024 (S.4361) was voted down in the U.S. Senate on April 23, 2024. The bill would have expanded the Department of Homeland Security’s capabilities of handling individuals entering/residing in the country without permission. It would have expanded the Department’s capabilities at the border. It required 3/5ths of the vote to pass cloture.
Now given, he’s gonna be pro-Arizona, and this was before the ICE bullshit, but it’s still a concern
ITT: People placing their hopes on a presidential race when they don’t even know if they are even going to be able to have a legitimate rollover on the midterms.
I myself am quite worried there will be no election this fall. I am preparing for potential mass civil unrest this summer. But we can’t let these psychos win in advance. They want to live in an autocratic country. It’s important to keep the flame alive
Have you seen how other Republicans are frequently defying Trump? (Mandatory “fuck them anyway” disclaimer, but still.) I’m sure he’ll try, but I don’t think he has the political capital to pull of a coup, and I don’t think there’s any route for him to build that capital before the deadline.
Yes, all bark, no bite.
I don’t think he can unilaterally seize power, because you’re right: not enough Republicans would support such a scenario. But I am concerned he can screw it up enough that no one will be able to accept the outcome. And as we saw with Minnesota, he can make an example of some cities and enrage enough people to trigger broader civil unrest.
Yes, but… they don’t have the numbers to do that nationwide simultaneously. At least not yet, they’re recruiting heavily, but the results of that drive seem pretty unimpressive so far.
Also I’m convinced they got scared out of Minnesota because people started patrolling the streets with guns, doing checkpoints, and generally warming up to the idea that they may need to shoot their way out of this situation. I think that actually did scare them, but that’s just my opinion.
Yeah, I am glad Minnesotans defended themselves. I just am very concerned about a cycle of mutual retaliation and cleansing getting kicked up.
It’s called hope, and it might be misplaced.
hope for the best, prepare for the worst. #2A
with the exception of the panthers in Philly, haven’t seen any 2A
Hope is not a tonic to be sipped in lieu of other measures, but a balm to provide relief in addition to other, more active treatments.
The best way to prepare yourself is to prepare for the most likely outcome. Doesn’t matter how good the balm is if it’s treating the wrong condition.
So if he wins he will be at retirement age when he is starting? Are you sure he is old enough for American voters?
He’s not nearly senile enough
i like mark kelly and gabby would be a fantastic first lady but please not right now; we need a radical to clean up the mess.
We need a Warrior, who will go after MAGA’s crimes likes it’s personal. I don’t care who it is, everything else is on the back burner. We can’t get this country on any kind of a track until we ruthlessly crush MAGA, purge it from our government and our country, and harshly punish them for their crimes. Only then, can we start to make plans to redeem our Nation in the eyes of our citizens, the world, and history
I’ll vote for anybody who pledges to make that their primary priority as POTUS.
Remember MAGA chanting “lock her up”? We need that energy now for the Democrats, lock Trump up … imprison all of these corrupt pieces of filth and seize their grifted assets.
I’m totally with you, brother.
Aside from lacking apparent credentials, I think Ilhan Omar would be a good wartime president. She wanted to punch the bastard that squirted at her, which is the right response to Republican jackasses.
The age calls for Teddy and Franklin Roosevelts: People willing to get into the fight, and contend with the issues of their times.
Omar is ineligible for the presidency as she wasn’t born in the US
And yet, we got a rapist in office, and the emolument clauses haven’t been applied for his innumerable acts of corruption. I would much rather have a good naturalized citizen as my president, than a shitty homegrown.
I wasn’t saying it’s not dumb
I’d like to think America could get over its religious bigotry but that won’t happen in the foreseeable future
I just had a thought about how funny it would be for the next president to report Trump and fam for sedition
Worker led revolution please this system doesn’t serve us.
Here here. We need to counter the brownshirts before we worry about electorialism.
I’d vote vote for anyone (Mark Kelly) over anyone who protects pedophiles. Plain. Simple. Straightforward.
Honestly, I’m just happy if theres an alternative to Newsome. Kelly isnt a progressive, but hes not a full blown corpo shill that the DNC would happily shove down our throats if unopposed.
Yeah I intended to write a very similar comment. I think Kelly is respected as someone who is both honest and who cares about the country, so while I’d nominally prefer a progressive, Kelly would be a huge alternative to Newsom’s slicked-back car salesman energy.
And I will seriously consider voting for just about anyone else left of him in the primary. No offense to him, he seems like a very solid dude, but the time for half-measures, centrists, and people that believe institutions will save us is well beyond over.
You nailed it on the head. If AOC runs, I’m absolutely voting for her. If not, Kelly seems a lot better than Newsom.
Kelly is quite a bit more right wing than Newsom. Kelly’s voting record is pretty terrible for Dems.
Yeah Kelley seems to be a centrist with a soul. I don’t want another fucking centrist but I really must insist on a candidate with a soul
As opposed to the literal Nazi puppets that were pushed into power?
Ya I’m not compromising. Leftist or nobody
You are the reason Trump won.
LMAO if even you clown. I played it safe with the Democrats non nominee the last two times Trump won. They still had their asses handed to them.
Done playing it safe. I do blame Trump’s victory on The pro Palestine protest voters though. Maybe you should be mad at them. They stayed home. I at least tried. You’re a fucking joke. This isn’t reddit noob This isn’t a safe space for dem neolibs
You fail basic statistics and common sense, you are free to do what ever you want, but the US election cycle is a solved problem. Drawing a line in the sand inadvertantly supports everything you are against because you are not supporting the candiates who wont do MOST of those things. You let perfection be the enemy of progress and everyone is worse off for it.
Vote for your candidate in the primary, vote against their opposition in the general. Tactical voting is most important right now, otherwise you get another GOP term.
LMAO no. Schumer, Jeffries, Pelosi have shown who they are. Complicit with the fascists. Besides I love on a red state, my vote does not matter. Maybe occasionally for local
AOC does not move me honestly. I would vote kelly over her. Maybe yang.
Ew
That’s just a vote for the aipaic uniparty
I love AOC, I think she’s the future of the country, but please please PLEASE do not nominate another candidate with a vagina in 2028. We’re just not ready for that.
I am selfish as a New York State resident and want to keep her, and give her Chuck’s seat in 2028. Maybe after a term or three in the Senate we’ll be ready to elect someone without a penis as President.
PLEASE do not nominate another candidate with a vagina
It’s so frustrating when well-meaning people have this blatantly sexist take.
The problem with Hillary and Kamala was not their vaginas, it was their policies.
If you actually believe that the US is too sexist to elect a woman, then you need to explain the election of Claudia Sheinbaum in Mexico. By every statistic (rape, domestic violence, etc), Mexico is a more sexist nation than the US, yet they overwhelmingly elected a woman.
Personally, I think Kamela’s biggest issue was the lack of primaries. Any candidate shoved into running when the elections are halfway done, are going to have a massive issue with recognition and being ‘proven’ for the role. A primary is both a filter and an advertising event.
What utter BS. We have progressive women winning races in the house and Senate so the problem isn’t having a damn vagina. The issue is the last two women presidential candidates were neoliberal jackasses that had crappy policies and dismissive attitudes toward their electorate.
Sure be selfish and say you want to keep her representation local but piss of saying a woman can’t win and then say don’t even try.
The Presidency is a bridge too far, though.
Ask yourself: why did Joe Biden, of all people, win, where Clinton and Harris didnt? It certainly wasn’t because he had fewer “crappy policies” than they did.
America, as a whole, is simply too misogynistic to elect a woman as President right now but, they are at least self-aware to know they can’t say that out loud. So we get excuses, instead, like “I don’t like her laugh” or “I just don’t agree with her”.
My favorite was a dude who said “I can’t vote for Harris, she reminds me too much of my ex-wife”. At least he’s honest.
I do think this is a huge factor. My lived experience backs this up and the fact that so many women and children were abused by powerful men and there’s literally no consequences backs this up. This country has a very serious mysoginy problem and we still can’t even talk about it without having our experiences dismissed and discounted. It’s undeniable that our system enabled the abuse of those women and children from top to bottom and were still not even allowed to talk about that reality. There’s a reason why most women you know have had an experience of sexual violence and no men that most people know have ever had any consequences for this and every time women try to discuss this online the conversation devolves into whataboutism with guys crying and mobbing on women about some guy they know who wasn’t trans falsely accused or some issue they had during a divorce. Anyway I know I’ll probably get downvoted because honesty on this stuff always does and I’ll vote for a woman for sure but failing to acknowledge the mysoginist problem this country has is a mistake. At the end of the day the real issue is will a candidate who is actually popular with the people be allowed to make it through the corrupt DNC’s primaries?
I agree it’s definitely large factor but I argue that it’s not insurmountable within my lifetime.
https://www.genderontheballot.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/2025-GOTB-Deck-c4_release.pdf
Sure, four out of ten know of someone that knows someone that expressed they would never vote for a woman president but at the same time 80 percent surveyed would be open to a women candidate.
Now is not the time to shy away from having real competition for progressive women and minorities into government. If anything the data shows it’s time to keep pushing and making progress.
Yeah, going to call bullshit again here.
Let’s take a look at the 2016 election
Popular vote was 65 million Hillary to 62 million to Trump.
Let me repeat here, Hilary, the vaginal candidate, WON the popular vote.
She lost because she didn’t listen to Sanders and other Democrats that told her don’t do your quixotic Southern strategy and listen and talk to your disillusioned working class voters in the rust belt.
And because she’s was a stubborn, neoliberal ass hat that thought she knew better, she lost the electorial college.
As for Harris, fuck, there’s so many things she just did wrong along with Biden.
So again, with all due Internet respect, get out of here with your anti woman BS and America as a whole won’t elect a woman. We just need a non-shitty neoliberal one.
Both she (and Harris) lost because their votes were not in the right zip codes. Biden got those votes. Biden was not a magically better candidate than either woman. There’s only one explanation that makes any sense at all.
Some voters may not even be aware of it. They might not even realize they are giving male candidates the benefit of the doubt, while assuming the worst about female candidates.
Did anyone ever say they couldn’t vote for Bill Clinton or GWB because they didn’t like the way they laughed?
Okay, so let’s get some data behind your Ludacris’ Area Codes Theory of Misogynistic Voting caused the loss of the 2016 and 2024 elections then.
You’re anecdotal evidence of some guy who said they would never vote for Hilary or that one guy who went and said they didn’t like her laugh, the only thing that proves is that America has people that are misogynistic, which of course is true, but isn’t proof of your premise that women can’t win elections. I can point out people that said they wouldn’t vote for her because Harris was black but that doesn’t provide enough of a basis that she lost due to racism. Anecdotal stories does not equal causation.
Here’s some more supporting evidence that Americans are becoming more open to women in office.
https://www.genderontheballot.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/2025-GOTB-Deck-c4_release.pdf
Some highlights because I’m sure you won’t read:
- four in 10 Americans personally know someone who would not elect a woman to the White House
- 83 percent of people polled think it’s important to elect more women into office.
- 82 percent are open to a qualified woman candidate for president.
So again data allows that women still have a hurdles but supports that a woman can win the presidency and I’ll continue to vote for a qualified progressive women in the primaries to counter your misogynistic vote.
Ask yourself: why did Joe Biden, of all people, win, where Clinton and Harris didnt?
Because he was an already known name that evoked memories of better times. He was Obama’s VP and people liked him in that position, that’s why he won, it’s very simple. Clinton wasn’t VP, wasn’t well liked, and was known to be an unreliable prospect. Harris was not known to the majority of people. Both Clinton and Harris had contentious campaign statements that worried and alienated a significant percentage of their potential voters. Harris, in addition, also was never voted for in a primary, she was simply assigned as Biden’s heir and we were supposed to just run with that and be okay with it. She really never had a chance no matter who she was. Clinton was consistently cringey and reeks of moneyed interests, she was never an attractive option to democratic voters, and would never stand a snowball’s chance in hell of converting any Republican voters like she seemingly wanted to because her husband was one of the favorite Republican whipping boys of all time. They all hate the Clintons, for poorly defined reasons.
Correct. She cannot win.
Your out of line…but your right
- you’re
Exactly. Many of us do not have an appetite to return to ‘normal’ I.e.: life before all of this.
We recognize this as a moment to start real change and do not intend to waste the opportunity.
Personally it makes me sick to think of a future bent on returning to the past, be it MAGA’s version or the neoliberal status quo.
Ya I’m done placating Dems, anyone left of Gavin or Kelly will have my vote. I’ve played it safe the last 2 elections with trump. We need a Hail Mary. Not more complacent. Marks only in this for a personal grudge, which is fine but when it come to big picture he will be just another dem.
I just realized while walking my dog today that a new hard line for me with Democrats is that if you accept corporate / billionaire PAC donations, I’m not donating to your campaign.
I cannot continue to pretend like you will actually give a fuck about my interests when you got into office using mostly money from sources that are actively working against my interests.
I’ll still vote as left as possible in both the primary and the general regardless, but I’m through giving campaign contributions to candidates where my money – and therefore my influence – is a drop in the bucket.
Either the next president will be a Democratic Socialist, or it will be a fascist. Democrats need to get back 20% of their base, plus the margin they need to pick up in the places they need to make up the differences they’ll need to win the big house.
Ask yourself this without looking at this announcement: Can a corporate Democrat do that?
I’m telling you now, either the next president will be a Democratic Socialist, or the Republicans win. No amount of glazing liberals is going to make them capable of winning an election.
Bernie 2028.
People dragging out Bernie in 2028
I love Bernie, but that ship has sailed. AOC is our next best hope, but we have to back DSA candidates at every level in every race. Even if we succeed, there is a real chance we don’t avoid violence. The Republic of Gilead is already here and the Republican pedo nazis don’t intend to ever allow or accept another fair, democratic election again. They are nothing if not open about that fact.
She cannot win.
You’re getting downvoted, but I agree. Sadly, I don’t think a woman will win the presidential election in the U.S. for at least another decade or two. Too many sexists, and subconscious misogyny
Yes and also being Latina. Many people aren’t ready for that, either. Irrelevant if her heritage is Puerto Rican. Too many idiots don’t recognize that as American.
That Munich conference has me in doubts about AOC
What happened there?
I’m assuming they’re trying to say that because she pauses and actually thinks about what she is trying to say (much like Obama did) before she says it, that somehow that makes her unfit to be president, because reasons.
You can’t just link a 25 minute video with no further explenation and expect anyone to actually watch it, and know what your point is.
I was busy so I just added the link. The point was mentioned after the initial clip of AOC speaking.
Anyway, she stated she was in favor of a neoliberal /neocon objective of spreading democracy. At the same time, she made her point with a massive word salad that appeared inauthentic.
As a Canadian, can you please stop picking ridiculously old people?
Find someone in the 45-65 year age range, you’re going to get a better outcome that way.
Our oldest Prime Minister in the last 50 years started when he was 65, most of them have been under 50.
No can do. It will be a day of national pride when we elect someone with a triple digit age.
We need a healthcare system that supports that first
Since you only elect wealthy people, you do have that health care system for the relevant people. And fuck everyone else.
Let Bernie rest :'(
Would love it but to old. If AOC ran with him as vice, I would back that.
I doubt he will run.
What a shame.
He’d only be eighty six years old.
Still doing the work to get fascists elected I see.
Is he not a democratic socialist?
As long you understand that appeasing your perspective on who the candidate needs to be isn’t important, we should be fine.
If you are BNMW/ Blue MAGA/ ABWD, whatever you want to call it: We don’t need to cater to your perspective. You’ll vote for anyone. Great. We appreciate you taking a back seat, because when previously your perspectives have been centered in the party, Democrats lose those elections to facsists or neoconservatives.
As long as you can accept that you don’t matter when it comes to who Democrats pick to run as president, we’re all good.
You’re not wrong
Getting downvoted for being right about the DNC, yep it’s .world’s politics forum.
I think Gavin’s going to do well even if the left is doing all the work spreading the right’s propaganda about him.
But maybe Bernie will win the primaries and it’ll usher in a new golden age and we’ll overthrow capitalism.
Gavin gives the whole thing to whomever the red fascist is. Period. Just fucking do what you are told this time and we’ll be fine.
I am hard pressed to think of a democrat I would vote for in a primary over him.
I’m struggling to think of one I wouldn’t vote for over Kelly, honestly. His voting record is one of the worst in the party, he’s more right wing than Fetterman. He frequently votes in favor of Trump appointees and Republican budgets. He talks a good talk though.
People, please research their positions and voting record. If you only vote based on vibes you’re going to always be disappointed. Remember Fetterman.
ok I do research voting records but only for active canidates in a race I can vote for. not potential.
A lot of lefties going to complain about his support for israel, even if modest. But honestly I cannot see another viable candidate in the wings. We have a couple years still but things are getting scary in terms of actual prospects and we’re going to have to throw our hats in with someone (other than Newsom) so Kelly is probably going to be a great bet, he appeals to the largest swath of moderate America who are tuned out and just want to hear that someone strong and professional will keep them in their comforts, and he has enough established clout with the legislative branch that he already has political capital, they won’t be afraid of working with him.
A lot of lefties going to complain about his support for israel, even if modest.
Really depends on who he is running against and how he positions himself along the way. If he’s out saying “Israel is our oldest and dearest friend, they just made a few mistakes” or god forbid “Anyone critical is anti-Semitic” he’s DOA. If he’s out there saying “We spend billions of dollars so Israel can have clean potable water and top tier health care, so it’s time to bring those amenities back to the US”, he can probably hurdle that criticism well enough.
he appeals to the largest swath of moderate America who are tuned out and just want to hear that someone strong and professional will keep them in their comforts
I mean, Biden appealed to these same voters by adopting half of Bernie Sanders’s platform and half of Hillary Clinton’s. Then he spent four years yelling at people for using TikTok and arguing the need to kill more brown people.
Kelly’s fine on paper, but if he opens his mouth and sounds like another “moderate Dem”… I think he’s going to have the same kind of trouble Cuomo did.
i mean congress passed the tiktok ban not biden…
Yeah that was something before trump got in but for democrats like myself the only thing that matters now is getting our house in order. Even then it was not like my top concern more of a hey why are we even involved in this bs but now its something that just is not part of the equation for me. I mean its a strange comparison but its somewhat like obama. Character, intelligence, ability. Honestly the age thing is likely the biggest factor but hoowee compared to we have been having he will still be a pup but who knows how the next two years will go.
I’d vote for him. Back when Biden was dropping out, I posted the question of peoples preferred democratic candidate, and Kelly was suggested by several people.
I think he could have won the '24 election had he been the candidate, and I think he could win the next election also.
The fact that (as he said in the video) he “Doesn’t consider himself a politician” is a huge plus.
It’s a bit sad that he’s starting to get old though. 60 seemed perfectly okay, 65 is a bit on the high end.
If Trump can make it to his age on a diet of McDonalds and child semen I’d bet Kelly will be good for a while yet.
Not ideal, but “not fucking awful” would be a big step up for the dnc.
If I have to vote for someone I’d rather it be an astronaut.
He might have to clarify a lot of his stances to get widespread support. For examples,
he opposed the Republicans tax bill giving cuts to the rich, but he has no comments on Kamala’s proposed unrealized gains tax for the rich
he has a 100% scorecard from reproductive freedom advocates, but exactly how far he supports bodily autonomy and by extension trans rights is unknown
Sadly one thing he has been clear and consistent on is when the war in gaza began several years ago, he supported aiding Israel and moving a carrier group to threaten Iran and Houthis into deescelating. He still as recent as January promises to continue “aiding” Israel despite acknowledging the carnage.
Honestly, I don’t like the idea. But he’s a little better than Newsom and he’s 10,000x better than Trump.
Yeah, he’s not perfect, let’s just elect Trump for the third time.
You right now:
Primaries are picking. If you think your opinion matters more than tens of millions of people it’s a you problem.
Bender is poking fun at how we threw the 2024 election when millions of people who voted for Biden in 2020 did not show up for Harris, which is relevant because of how I nitpicked Kelly’s stances.
Kamala lost because she abandoned her voters. She told her own base to pound sand while fruitlessly trying to appease Republicans. The voters didn’t “not show up.” She simply made herself not their candidate anymore. It’s a fools’ errand to blame voters, as they’re not an individual you can actually hold accountable. Blaming voters for not voting for your terrible candidate is like blaming consumers for not buying shitty overpriced items at a store. You can whine, “well you have to buy something somewhere anyway!” But that’s just unproductive whining.
I think the only unpopular stance she had was on Israel and even thats only a few percentage points, about the same as those concerned with the economy among those who voted for Biden but not Harris. SOURCE
Do you have any examples of policies that you think made Harris a worse choice than Trump?
I think she did a poor job of saying what she brought to the table. I understand not wanting to throwJoe under the bus, but opening some daylight on policy would have given her a chance to deflect the affordability problems the last months of Biden had, for example.
She had a campaign website which is no longer up and it detailed every stance very clearly. One of my favorite parts was a proposed Unrealized Gains Tax on amounts over $1M which would cripple income for billionaires, removing the cap on social security so that the rich payed their share, and no tax inceases on anyone who made less than $400k.
There was a large orchestrated effort to keep the conversation off of those important topics, though. Including social media psyops, such as giving lower priority and exposure to DNC on Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, and TikTok.
The news surrounding her and her campaign advertising were generally pretty ass, though, yeah.
First, you can cut that shit right out with your leading question of “was she worse than Trump.” That isn’t how a large portion of the electorate acts, thinks, and believes. Some vote on utilitarian ethics. Some vote on respect for persons. You can’t just whine, stamp your feet, and pretend that utilitarianism is the only way to vote. You’re trying to hand waive away an branch of moral philosophy that has centuries of scholarly work behind it. If you view voting as simply an either/or choice, sure, Kamala was the only choice. If you view voting as an endorsement of candidate, then it’s perfectly valid to not vote for a candidate simply because you consider their actions to be morally abominable. The other guy being worse doesn’t change that.
She abandoned Palestinian Americans. The strongest defense of trans people she could offer “she would follow the law.” She cozied up with the Cheneys and offered no real policies that would move the needle on wealth inequality. And she couldn’t even offer a robust plan on how to protect abortion rights. And she gaslit everyone on the economy, telling people to believe the inflation figures and not their own lying eyes.
And before you claim that utilitarianism is the only valid voting philosophy, realize that is not how our own government behaves. We’ve literally vaporized millions of innocent civilians over the decades. The justification has always been, “well, they supported the evil regime and their evil actions.” Yet every dictator has come to power on the backs of people who thought they were the lesser evil. Hell, almost every Republican thinks Trump is a monster, but they vote for him because they consider him the lesser evil. I’m sure we incinerated thousands of Iraqis who voted for Saddam because he was the lesser evil on the ballot.
Vote how you want. If you view voting as a utilitarian exercise, so be it. But part of living in a democracy is recognizing that other people can have different belief systems and ways of life. Your way is not the only way. You believe that the ends always justify the means. Others recognize that as a road to Hell.
The Biden administration she was Vice President of had Trans cabinet member and judges appointed, the most LGBT+ administration in US history.
Biden protected the ranks and jobs of LGBT government employees and servicemembers attacked by the previous Trump admin including reinstatements. They also signed the respect for marriage act which gave protections for Gay Marriage.
No matter how you expect the electorate thinks, there were two options and the people of the US collectively made the wrong choice, blame falling on the few million who could have changed the outcome.
Being willing to throw an election is one of the only tools voters actually have to fight fascism. It’s the only way to prevent a bait-and-switch candidate. If you’re not willing to potentially lose an election when your candidate betrays you, future candidates will betray you every time. You’ve told them that you’re perfectly fine with being betrayed. You’ve proven yourself a spineless cuck that will let people walk all over you.
Actions have consequences. Voting has consequences. And Trump isn’t the worst possible leader out there. He’s a monster, but there are many gradations of monster. There are far worse monsters out there waiting to be elected. If you’re not ever willing to walk away from a traitor candidate in the general election, you guarantee that the Democrats will just keep sliding to the right forever. Nominating a corporate Dem in 2028 will almost certainly see another Republican win. But even on the thin chance they do win, electing a corporate Dem in 2028 guarantees someone even worse than Trump winning in 2032.
We’ve degenerated so far precisely because Democrats don’t take responsibility for their votes and will just blindly vote for whatever corporate tool is placed in front of them. It’s the political version of the “next quarter” thinking that plagues corporate America. All that matters is the election today. Don’t think about the long term consequences. Focus only on today, even if it hurts you in the long term. Trump is the result of decades of Dems kicking the can down the road, holding their nose, and voting for the lesser evil.
Notice, we’re only starting to see some progressives gain traction in the party after Democrats have suffered badly at the polls. There has been real change at the DNC. That and candidates like Mamdani would have been completely impossible if Trump hadn’t been elected. It’s only when the old guard loses horribly and has to run away in shame that the opportunity arises for new voices to take the reins of the party.
There are people in concentration camps, and some who have been murdered. China might take over Taiwan. Ukraine has lost many more people than it would’ve, given more support. The Gazan people might wind up displaced in favor of Trump resorts.
None of them volunteered to be martyrs for social democracy. Tell them how much worse we could have it. People who are so quick to sacrifice others instead of doing the work to build a better world get no claim to moral righteousness. If people want social democrats, that’s what the primary process is for. You don’t need to punish them for choosing wrongly. As a parent of five I can tell you punishment doesn’t motivate anyone to do the right thing — it motivates them to remove your ability to punish them.
The more I reread your words, the more I reject your vainglorious recklessness. You must do what you can with the means you are given for the situation you are in.
I hear you, and I understand, but also in that same pragmatic vein, we stand at a crossroads where without a coalition with the left we have no path forward. The right can’t seem to articulate any kind of clear concept of what would bring them on board except hurting more people. The left at least has the advantage of expressing a clear set of demands, none of which are particularly objectionable. Difficult, yes, possibly unachievable in a time frame that would satisfy them, but not objectively evil, which is more than I can say for the voting base of the right at this point. We have a choice to try to win back the left, or to try to make ourselves attractive to those who are at this point actively voting for fascism and potentially for mass genocide. Are we not being just as obstinate with our insistence on political centrism that we too are allowing the right to engage in atrocity after atrocity?
I’m not advocating voting for candidates who “can win the general election” in primaries. Vote for social democrats there and let the general election fall where it must. The more social democrats we get in the party, the stronger their influence will be and that is how we drag the party to the left. But when it comes to the general, the most milquetoast corporatist democrat is better than right-wing outright fascism.
But when it comes to the general, the most milquetoast corporatist democrat is better than right-wing outright fascism.
Only if you only care about the short term. And then short term thinking is what has got us to this point.
Short term we risk losing democracy. Which is a long term problem.
In your opinion. An opinion you’re no more willing to budge on than the leftist is willing to compromise their position that any further concession to the right is tantamount to endorsing their atrocities. That someone willing to “reach across the aisle” at this point is doing little more than consenting to crimes committed in their name. The leftist and the liberal are standing equally on their beliefs and their principles, and both are just as unwilling to compromise. Can you truly say either one is more responsible for dividing the opposition to the fascists than the other? If you truly believe that voting for anyone but Trump is worth whatever price it takes, then you also believe there’s no harm in endorsing a more left leaning candidate no? Unless you truly believe more Democrats are willing to permit crimes against humanity than there are leftists willing to find an acceptable compromise. If that’s the case, the United States of America has already fallen too far to save.
If you truly believe that voting for anyone but Trump is worth whatever price it takes, then you also believe there’s no harm in endorsing a more left leaning candidate no?
That is implicit in what I said. I don’t endorse Newsome or Kelly. I love what I’m seeing out of Kat Abughazaleh in Illinois, but I can’t vote for her. I’m a hopeful pragmatist.
As for the rest, we are doing irreparable harm to our people and others. That’s not a price I’m willing to pay. It’s a price that I fear might harm us all for decades or longer if Trump chooses to do autocracy.
“Letting Trump win fights fascism.”
You think the voters are that smart?
So basically, just another dem. I’ll vote for whoever wins the primary, but he probably wouldn’t be my first choice.
