They’ll point to Israel, Israel, Israel. Okay, sure, agreed.
But when you point out that China, North Korea, and Russia are all engaging in a blatant genocide against Ukraine – they suddenly cannot grasp the concept!
My political sanity check is to ask what one’s opinion is on Ukraine and Palestine.
See Ukrainians as victims of genocide but not Palestine? Zionist piece of shit. Palestinians are victims but Russia is justified? Tankie piece of shit. Don’t approve of either genocide? Might be a sane human being that actually dislikes genocide itself.
Genocide is when the killing is not being done by my friends.
War justification can cause some crazy opinions and stances.
See, I understand the sentiment, but then I also know many people who use terms like “tankie” also wouldn’t be super chill about anti-imperialism in any way related to abolishing the EU, US, Canada, Australia, etc. Not that is necessarily the case, but hardly worth focusing on “hypocrisy” without consistency.
You all for ending Canada or the US?
Israel isn’t a democracy.
How are China and North Korea engaging in blatant genocide against Ukraine?
North Korea is supporting the Russian war effort by providing troops. North Koreans have been fighting alongside Russian soldiers for a long while now. It’s actually worse, because North Korean soldiers are on the front lines they’re getting experience fighting a modern war. Which means that if North Korea ever gets into a shooting war with South Korea or the United States they’ll have experienced troops. Right now the best thing to do would be support Ukrainian forces because they’re also gaining experience fighting a modern war and could teach those skills to American and NATO troops.
As for China, I don’t know.
China supports Russia in a similar, but lesser, way to the US supporting Israel.
Ah oh no you pointed to Israel so that argument just doesn’t count.
I mean if that counted you could say that almost all the western nations are “blatantly engaging in genocide” for supporting Israel or preventing sanctions. That basically normalized genocide. It becomes an everyday thing. Genocide, schmemocide.
Obviously the removal of Children by Russia is considered a war crime and can amount to ethnic cleansing.
Well yeah, Russia is also gaining experience in drone warfare. It’s just one reason why I’m against continuing this war. We’re literally building up Russia as our enemy. The military elites in Russia all support this war, and the war economy is going to build up their weapons capabilities long term.
I’m against continuing this war
Oh so noble of you!
Wars can be won or lost. Surrender is always an option. Ukraine is down to ~45% of it’s prewar population, and it’s not certain how many refugees will want to return.
No I’m not “noble” I’m just an adult. Call me daddy. Don’t be a baby and crash out when you loose a little game of war. And eat some vegetables with your peace agreement! Ukraine is just fucked, but better them than us. I’m not spending fucking 5% of GDP on fucking Nato 3.0!
I’d celebrate that we get to own what is left of Ukraine but it’s obviously going to be owned by the banks. And then Ukraine is going to create their own “stab in the back” myth, really looking forward to that as well haha.
PS: I’m obviously bullshitting but that is more or less the shitty reality of the situation.
That a strange thing to say about the side that currently is winning.
Surrender equals to mass tortures, oppression, pillage and rape, thus less or more similar to continuation of war. Except you won’t be reading about it in the news. Adult my ass.
I’m Ukrainian, my father’s friends were killed this week by a random drone strike in their home. Get fucked with your vegetables.
I’m very sorry to hear about your sorrows. It doesn’t change my argument though.
Surrender equals to mass tortures, oppression, pillage and rape
This is bit much on the hyperbole and borders on incitement to racial hate. Trying to paint the Russians as some kind of orc people fell out of use like 2 years ago.
In any case a diplomatic solution would obviously require some kind of security guarantee (that includes security for Russia). This retired Commodore suggest the OSCE as a possible peacekeeping force.
How do you see this war ending? Just keep painting Russia as the supreme evil and push for endless confrontation, escalation, war? Some kind of wunderwaffe?
The new reality is that even NATO cannot cannot guarantee security, that article mentions this - the US has been practically been pushed back from the gulf by Iran. And Russia has better weapons than Iran. And neither US or Europe can afford to produce more weapons, and doesn’t even have the capacity.
And winter is going to be a problem with the self imposed energy crisis. The looming AI bubble is going to pop sooner or later. European countries are going to go into recessions, reactionary parties are going to get into power.
This fucking insanity and dream of total war has to stop. Why does Russia have to be my enemy? I don’t have to like them to get along.
NK provides troops and artillery shells. China keeps their market open to russi allowing drone and drone parts purchases - which are instantly weponized into loitering ammunition aka kamikaze drones
TBF to China, they’re selling to both sides.
The whole thing is a Helleresque farce.
For example:
A comedy for those who can think, a tragedy for those who can feel.
Obviously, there’s a war on, so take everything you read with a pinch of salt.
They are the Ferengi in this war.
War is good for business.
So basically all the following countries that are still engaging in trade with Israel are engaging in genocide against Palestine:
Argentina Australia Austria Brazil Canada China Costa Rica Czechia Denmark Ecuador Egypt Estonia Finland France Greece Hungary India Ireland Italy Japan Mexico Moldova Morocco Netherlands New Zealand Norway Paraguay Peru Philippines Poland Portugal Romania Singapore Slovakia South Korea Sweden Switzerland Thailand United Arab Emirates United Kingdom United States Uruguay Vietnam
wat
Pfff, a real tankie would never admit it was for territorial expansion. Don’t you know Zelensky is the new Hitler? Russia is just saving Europe from Ukraine.
We should be thanking them.
(Totally not sarcasm, I’m super cereal)
if ukraine was facist russia would be supporting them, not invading.
I have a 35 year-old coworker who is a Ride Or Die Russian dick rider he doesn’t fully support Trump since the Epstein cover-up, but he still will praise him, but he fully supports Russia in its invasion of Ukraine saying that Ukraine is full of pedophiles and they need to be wiped off the Earth. And somehow achieving this will make our lives in America better and everything will be cheaper somehow…
Don’t give money to Ukraine because they’re evil fascists. Let Putin and his glorious thousand year regime reign supreme and stamp out the parasites suckling the life out of the earth like ticks on the flesh of Matka Rossiya.
This will also make eggs cheaper.
It’s why Tucker Carlson supports them: they’re right-wing authoritarian nationalists.
My theory with Tucker and MTG is that they are sitting on the sidelines waiting for Donnie to die, and that will cause a power vacuum in maga and they will do everything in their power to take control and move the party in their own way forward, which I don’t think will work, but it will cause a spinoff, which will be worse than it was before.
You’re right, but I don’t think it’s really theory that the far-right also has factions.
When it happens more often that I see critics of a group make claims about what that group says or believes, and when I’ve never seen members of the group say anything that matches those claims, it makes me suspicious.
This is what warmed me up to veganism for example - growing up hearing nothing but arguments against vegans, and then when finally seeing some things a real vegan had to say and having to realize the vast majority of those anti-animal-rights arguments are grossly full of shit.
I’m getting the same vibes here. I don’t engage with political ideology much these days because theory makes my eyes glaze, but posts like these seem 1) suspicious af, and wouldn’t surprise me if they’re being pushed by paid actors, and 2) seem highly likely to be a strawman.
You want to be taken seriously, show evidence.
I’m sorry, you haven’t seen tankies say this on Lemmy?
You can look through this thread if you want confirmation.
They’re also in this very post.
The link to your thread shows zero comments for me. The OP post in the thread is correct though, Israel is a child killing state.
Israel is absolutely a child-killing apartheid genocidal state.
Here’s a taste:
“We critically Russia” is too fucking funny to be a typo. Its almost like they can’t disapprove of something without immediately defending the other side. As an adult, I can say US imperialism is bad. Also as an adult, I can say that doesn’t make Russia inherently good.
I am not sure what you thought the statement was intended to be, but the typo is that they were saying they “critically support Russia”. With critical support being a common leftist term for support while being critical.
Put simply they are saying “US imperialism is bad, that doesn’t make Russia inherently good.”
Go look at any of the tankie communities, hell even c/leftymemes is full of this bullshit.
I was like you until I started seeing more ML posts on here that completely baffled my mind. In one hand Palestine should be free (rightly so) and then in the other they claim Ukraine is full of Nazis and Russia is doing the world a service of exterminating them. The disconnect is pretty crazy. If you want hard actual evidence, just go to an ML instance and poke around for a bit. It’s not hard to find, sadly.
commies can’t conquer. Every tankie knows this.
It blows my mind that pro- Palestinians think they shouldn’t support Ukraine.
I wonder if MLs around here are pro-Palestine only because that’s a pushback against the Western representation in the Middle East, Isreal
Yeah they have no issue with China helping Israel as long as sometimes the country says free palestine
I think you nailed it.
I think some of that stems from Zelensky holding Israel in favor a lot. He’s had multiple positive comments about it, even though Israel is doing what Russia did to Ukraine (or tried to do really)
His view on Israel has shifted considerably. I don’t blame him for trying to highlight the parallels to gain favor and cooperation immediately after October 7. Naturally he’s signaling, “Ah, you’re going through what we’ve been going through! Let’s work together!”
Though of course after months went on and Israel’s response became orders of magnitude more atrocious and russian-like than the attack itself, then Ukraine began distancing itself and even providing aid to Gaza.
On the other hand, Ukraine really can’t afford to antagonize the US or western Europe. And since those countries are ride or die for Israel, well, Ukraine needs to be, too.
This sarcastic comment was removed and got me banned:
I see. So the US western expansion wasn’t imperialist because they weren’t a hegemonic world power yet. They were just trying to make sure they could stand up to England! It wasn’t about territorial expansion or resources at all. Ridiculous drivel.
They can’t let other tankies see how ridiculous their arguments are.
The other one was mocking tankies for gargling Putin’s asshole, which is a bit more understandable; I guess some people like the taste.
Tankies are authoritarians. Red fascists. They don’t give a fuck about anything or anyone, just their fascist kings being in charge so they can hurt people they think are inferior. Just like any other fascist.
They shit on Marx and gargle Lenin and Mao, then tell you that actually state control and secret police are the real communism.
Is it any wonder from people who cheer when the tanks roll over protesters and revolutionaries?
I am still convinced a sizable chunk of online tankies are just right-wing extremists cosplaying. Oh, and of course foreign operatives.
I’d say it’s even simpler than that, it’s just tribalism.
$person has criticized our gracious $monarch. They deserve to die!
$person speaks against $religion and is a heretic. They deserve to die!
$person made fun of $fascist_leader. They deserve to die!
$person goes against $party. They deserve to die!
Whoever is in power speaks absolute truth. Be it a fascist leader, a church, a communist party or a monarch. Opposing that truth is heresy/treason/counter-revolutionary/evil and should be severely punished.
I hate how much they made Marx’s name dirty, not only people will look at you funny for being communism because of the $$$ propaganda, they will also look at tankies and think communists are like this, infuriating
🤣 I enjoy refuting their bullshit about the USSR since I’m from there.
Don’t forget insulting your blood line while they are at it.
Oh that’s their only way of survival. Not by logic, but by banning anything going against their opinion.
It’s the same as if you would argue with a flatearther. Pure denialism.
Or when they say that Russia’s genocide of the Ukrainians or China’s genocide of the Uyghurs isn’t real and claiming it is real is actually genocide denialism?
/This is an actual image of .ml’s and dbzer0’s admins.Pretty accurate. However it is just braindead like @Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com and @Luminous5481@lemmy.dbzer0.com
But as long as @db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com let’s them do whatever they want, he is part of the problem.
And they call themselves anarchists lol. Like someone who smoked weed once calls themselves hippie.
Edit: watch me get banned in real time from their hypocritical “Anarchist Flotilla”. I bet they all feel like heroes by using the term Flotilla
Of course it’s imperialism.
What kinda irks me, as an American, is when other Americans act like this is the first time anyone’s done an invasion in the 21st century. As though our government didn’t spend the last twenty+ years establishing what huge economic, nuclear powers can get away with on the world stage.
When a tankie says they’re not imperialist, they’re generally referring to the strict definition set forth by Lenin, and not the looser definition in common use.
You’ll get some online tankies who dick ride Russia for sure, but they’re just larping. Real Marxists, who do real organizing, are generally more discerning.
Don’t get me wrong though, I’m not supporting them. They intentionally misunderstand when people say imperialist just so they can argue Russia isn’t. No one is talking about the strict definition when they say it to a tankie.
I’m not familiar with Lenin’s particular definition of imperialism. Does it somehow exclude what Russia is doing?
If you want to understand fully how they decide imperialist vs not imperialist you’d have to read, imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism.
Really it comes down to finance and the export of capital. Lenin differentiated between finance and exporting capital, and wars of territorial aggression. What Russia is doing would fall under war of aggression and not strictly imperialism according to his definition.
https://www.struggle-la-lucha.org/2023/08/16/five-key-features-of-imperialism/
Honestly, that sounds like bullshit that Lenin made up so he could say he’s totally not the new tsar.
90% of what lenin says is bullshit to justify shit.
To be fair literally everyone with any real power though history does that. If your getting your definitions entirely from a dude self justify their own actions your a fucking idiot.
Oh god, what is the looser definition then? Because it really looks like libs are using it to mean any war.
I personally think Russia’s long-standing attitude and justifications for undermining and attacking Ukraine are imperialist. It seems Russians view Ukraine as traditionally Russian, even the Ukraine has developed their own national identity. Same thing with how China views Taiwan and Tibet, they use past history to hand-wave away any claims of self-determinism and develop a narrative that manipulation and threats are justified.
(I’m not a geopolitical expert and willing to hear good-faith arguments, but anyone who’s just snarky or insulting will just get ignored. I’m here to learn, not to fight.)
But why? What is your understanding of imperialism that qualifies Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
I guess it’s the textbook definition? A larger nation using its resources (cultural soft power, or military power) to extend their authority over a smaller country. Usually for economic or territorial ends. I apply it to Russia/Ukraine because I put more stock in Ukraine’s sovereignty-from-cultural-identity than I do in Russia’s historical claims over it. It seems adjacent to decolonization to me.
Don’t forget all the russification brought to eastern Europe by the bullshit imperalist Soviet union.
Should they have made everybody speak French or English? To compete with the West economically the East needed a common language. How should the language have been chosen?
What they should have done is let countries keep their sovereignty. Or are you saying that ecomonic competition with the west is a valid reason for what Russia did to eastern Europe?
This is what I mean, by that definition you can cover almost every war. You don’t see smaller nations invading larger, more powerful ones. You can even use it to say the US influence in Ukraine over the last 30 has been imperialist. The Norman invasion of 1066 becomes imperialist. Can you really not see how meaningless a definition that is?
This is what I mean, by that definition you can cover almost every war.
Only if your reading comprehension sucks…
Well, I mean, as an American I can mention a couple of important wars to my homeland that weren’t driven by these motivations. Shall I elucidate?
Agreed as very well known and easy examples that prove not all wars got the definition.
Plus what in the world is wrong with it fitting 80-90% of wars for at least one side of the conflict? It is easily one of the most likely reasons for counties to go to war.
Please stop engaging with this troll, they’re not operating in good faith, they just want to engage in russian atrocity apologia
You mean the revolution? Because I’m pretty sure you aren’t about the raise the civil war, where the more powerful north imposed it’s will on the confederacy through military power.
You’re a sealioning fascist
Yeah, yeah, can you give me a definition without opening Wikipedia or not?
deleted by creator
What definition are you using, just out of curiosity?
Exploitation of a nation for labour and resources. You know, like America invading Iraq and Afghanistan for oil and heroin, or America invading Korea so they could get cheap sweatshop labour, or Europe invading Africa for everything and everyone that wasn’t nailed down.
You say it like I’m some capitalist pig that doesn’t agree with all of the above. I don’t get why Russia gets a pass though, they mucked about in Africa, Asia and Latin America in their past too. They are still in Africa from what I understand and it’s hard to pretend they aren’t in Ukraine specifically for ressources.
Russia doesn’t get a pass for it’s actual imperialism, but Russia’s other actions doesn’t make this action imperialist.
It’s hard to pretend they are in Ukraine for resources, Ukraine was having a full blown civil war over the banning of speaking russian. I know we’re used to standing idly by and shrugging our shoulders when someone’s attempting genocide, but saying Russia is there for resources is just pretending history started in 2022.
So you agree that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is imperialist?
Exploitation of a nation for labour and resources.
Because it’s exactly that.
Yeah I’d call those all imperialism as well. There’s a distinct theme of economic expansion - and that certainly doesn’t describe every war I know about
I can’t help but feel you are actually engaging in bad faith when you’ve commented twice that you definitely know other wars but don’t mention what they are.
If you think I’m trolling or whatever, you’re free to bow out of the conversation. I was just trying to be succinct and avoid writing walls of text.
It’s only imperialism if it’s being produced in the special empire
If it doesn’t come from the regions of the Western Imperialist Pigs then it’s not real imperialism. It’s sparkling annexation.
No, no, no - it’s no annexaion, it’s freeing people (as I got from some tankie about China’s occupation of Tibet).
Mind you, all Imperialists (no matter from which region) tend to claim they’re freeing the people they’re attacking - America and its allies are constantly “freeing” people in the Middle East from some autoritarian or other all the while leaving behind 10x - 100x more dead than the dictator ever killed, Russia claimed to be invading to free Ukranians from Nazism.
Even the Genociders claim they’re somehow freeing people: notice Israel’s talk about how the Palestineans treat homosexuals badly, all the while they were indiscriminatelly mass murdering people in Gaza, including said homosexuals.
You’re only being upvoted because people think you’re being sarcastic, but I know you’re being serious because I’ve seen you do this before.
No? I suspect you are talking about threads where I’ve been saying that the Russian-Ukranian war must be stopped, threads where I defended/explained some Putin’s talking points, and literally telling people that there’s no difference between deaths of Ukrainian civilians and Russian civilians, the fact that killing more Russians will not grant Ukraine victory. I also recall a few threads where I called out literal neonazis in Ukraine and got downvoted by Ukraine larping supporters from the left to hell.
I have never defended Putin’s expansionism and have always called it imperialism.
So you’re against the war, but only when it means criticizing Ukraine?
Not full-strength kremlin propaganda then, just kremlin propaganda lite. Got it.
How about you tell everyone that the war could end in a day if Putin simply decides to pull his troops out of Ukraine? I don’t recall you ever mentioning that.
Oh, by the way, there’s a substantial difference between one or two collateral civilian casualties now and then, and deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, killing them in the thousands, as well as detaining, displacing, torturing, and raping them.
The fact that you try so hard to draw a false equivalence between the two, is itself kremlin propaganda.
No, no,no, you must choose sides, good or bad, black or white.
No such thing as nuance or critical thinking on the internet, get with the program.
Otherwise it’s… Sparkling fascism?
Otherwise it’s a defense against imperialism
So… Are you saying that Russia invasion of Ukraine is Russia’s defence against Ukraine imperial expansion?
Yes, in the current tankie narrative it is:
Only the US can perform imperial expansion, therefore Russia’s invasion into Ukraine is the defense against US expansion. Go ask ml guys, they’ll confirm it
Where do you guys find these people?
Lemmy.ml/socialism is a toxic wasteland filled with Stalinists and DPRK supporters (really)
Lemmy.ml in general. Mod of lemmy.ml/worldnews called Ukrainians terrorists for drone striking oil depots. I called him out badly (won’t use the word) for not calling Russia terrorists for bombing hospitals. Got banned from lemmy.ml/jellyfin. So yeah, arguing on worldnews got me banned from jellyfin, and a few other completely unrelated forums despite them not sharing mods.
That means their homeserver, jellyfin and a few other forums are run by hardcore tankies. If you insult Russians , you are banned from helping people with their server problems.
Right, would that be the only place? I can’t say I’ve seen any DPRK supporters like, ever. Maybe during that period where people began challenging US propaganda and understandably assumed it was all bullshit; that was like seven or eight years ago though.
They are everywhere but less impactful if you block some instances
I’m yet to see any really without seeking them out
I’ve really bumped into it by accident when browsing all and not noticing where I am. Then it’ll be a week of hate messages after a non consequential comment on something unimportant.
On lemmy.world often.
Every time someone posts about calling out ml bs they are like sharks to blood
I have certainly seen more posts like this than the posts it references, of which I could recall none
I’m mostly joking because of where the user is from. But they’re there. Hexbear and .ml are the communities you’ll find these people the most
Ahh I see
The Web has its share of agents working for a nation state to guide the discourse. I imagine this location isn’t too different.
Doing good work 🏴
Don’t argue with delusional people unless you’re also willing to reject reality (don’t do that).
