fuck offffff
<Laughs in GrapheneOS>
I am thinking about installing Graphene OS, any thoughts so far on how it work, or rather what hasn’t worked on it? I am already using Brave and Proton and trying my best to get out of the AI overlord mess that is Google.
brave is not a good privacy choice (it has repeatedly shown that it is not to be trusted, it squeezes money out of you, and is run by a homophobic cryptobro (who is also the creator of javascript)
on android, use firefox or ironfox; on desktop, use librewolf
Anyway to set up Firefox on android to actually block tracking? Seems like it is just as leaky as Chrome, but maybe they have improved it.
not sure
i dont actually use android, i use an iphone, i just know quite a bit about this stuff
Is mull not recommended anymore?
Mull was from DivestOS, which ended up folding a few years ago. Sad, cause I actually used it on a OnePlus 7T phone and it was a promising alternative to Graphene that similarly allowed for bootloader relocking. I really wish the team got the support it needed.
idk about it
ironfox is forked from it tho
Anyway to set up Firefox on android to actually block tracking? Seems like it is just as leaky as Chrome, but maybe they have improved it.
I use grapheneOS for many years now. I’m having some trouble coming up with things that haven’t worked on it. I use Aurora as an alternate front end for google play, for downloading certain free apps.
I think I’ve seen problems with apps that check google store for purchase verification, but I don’t personally have a google account or purchase android apps so it hasn’t affected me.
Its nice if you are actually trying to stay away from Google. Its probably not the best experience if you still want to use their apps and services.
I prefer the experience. My phone doesnt try to get my attention or track me, at least as far as I can tell. Reminds me of when the first smart phones came out and they were just useful tools.
I am new to GrapheneOS, and I love it. However, it doesn’t work with Google Pay, Wallet, or Moto Tag devices.
I also prefer the unbloated ROM and limiting what Google can do on my phone. However, this new captcha thing is worrying: https://www.digitaltrends.com/phones/the-makers-of-security-first-grapheneos-are-putting-google-and-apples-tactics-on-blast/
I’m at a point in my life where I just won’t use a service or company if it won’t work on my devices. Thats not likely to be a luxury everyone has so I know its not for everyone.
Second the req against Brave, the CEO is actively a fascist sympathizer.
Mullvad and Librewolf are both better, especially since Brave is Chrome-based and is going to stop supporting Manifest v2 when Google finally swings the axe.
Mullvad doesn’t work on Android though correct? And if privacytests.org/android is to be believed, seems like Brave currently is the best of the bunch, unless you have seen something better?
Ironfix on Android is best equivalent to Mullvad on PC.
Also fuck Brave and its CEO and its crypto fascism bulkshit.
Honestly, it an easy switch and you’re going to love the control you regain.
Fuck you Pichai you fucking banchode.
TIL what a banchode is….
“Banchode” (often spelled “banchod” or “benchode”) is a vulgar Hindi/Gujarati slang insult roughly meaning “sister-fucker,” similar in strength to “motherfucker” in English.
Pronounced bench-o-day?
Ben-chode… Add lots of fucking either before or after for authenticity
Because all of their customers were clamoring for such a “feature”?
Of course, it will have the option of being “turned off”.
I mean, we’ve all long suspected our phones are listening to us anyway, why not make it into a “feature”.
Microsoft introduces “Recall” spyware the world goes mad, Google and Apple do something similar and it’s mostly silence.
I’m not defending Microsoft but it just shows the double standards between the trust in these corporations.
At this stage there should be more people up in arms and onto the streets.
I consider Graphine OS but on the other hand there is so little value left due to enshitification. A library card and a flip phone is probably the way to go.
Reason n+1 for me being thankful to have switched to GrapheneOS.
How’s the app support? I want to switch if/when the Motorola phones come out, but I’m wondering how many of my apps/services I’ll have to abandon.
I am yet to find any app that doesn’t work.
Almost everything just works after installing sandboxed Google Play Services. For a few apps you have to tweak a setting to turn off some of GrapheneOS’s exploit protections. But I’ve found very few that refuse to run, and nothing indispensable. If you don’t like your main profile having Play Services you can set them up under a second profile or a private area and keep the apps that use them away from your main profile.
The other thing that might be a dealbreaker for you is no contactless payments with things like google wallet will work. But you could always just attach your credit card to the back of your phone and :tada: it works again lol
Contactless payments technically work fine, just not via Google Wallet. Banks that have their own tap to pay app usually don’t have that problem.
You must be lucky to have such banks in your country.
I can confirm that the Sparkasse Mobiles Bezahlen in Germany works with GrapheneOS (Pixel 7 Pro)
There’s several EU countries that do. Some of them as part of a push for sovereignty, but most, I think, cause they developed their solutions before Google Wallet was enabled in that country.
I’m unaware of anyone but curve, and curve seem to shadow-ban you for having rooted or weird phones and then claim kyc failure. In general they are quite shady and have poor customer service.
You know any other ones? Would be very useful since I think anyone in the eurozone could then use those.
There was no work profile support when I last tried to convert. deal breaker, atm.
That has been working fine for years at this point.
me and the other folks trying to get this working disagree. there are several threads about it on the GOS forum.
Yeah, I was thinking of separate profiles in general, and had never encountered the concept of an employer controlled separate profile. When I needed a device for something work related, I usually got issued a phone.
Those were the days…I used to have a personal phone, corporate phone and a site phone! The multi phone inconvenience was real…
Just grab an app like Shelter.
0% of the apps/methods available at the time worked with my employers setup. I did everything except the adb method. ended up getting a crap phone for work. it just sits on my desk anyway.
Oh, you mean a profile set up by your employer. Actually, dunno whether that works. I never let any employer touch a personal device.
Ive only got one gripe with it and its the requirement for RCS. I do prefer to use signal but genuinely only one person I know has gotten on to it. I hate using google messages but for folks that send me bulk pictures from iOS its just a hassle until there’s a Foss one that works but there isnt to my knowledge. I do know RCS only works on the main profile goo
Some bank apps may not work, but you can check by searching for you bank name + GrapheneOS
I found this list helpful: https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compatibility-with-grapheneos/
I also found that one of the ones I use would only work in the Owner profile with Gplay services so the secondary profile wasn’t an option for it.
I switched a few months ago and overall its been an excellent experience. Some pitfalls though:
- Banking apps may not work, Santander in the UK for example but I’m going to transfer away from them
- Contactless pay through google wallet doesn’t work, I couldn’t find a way to attach a card to the back of my phone and also keep pixel snap usable so I bought a small pixel snap wallet that works nicely
- Recently Volkswagen and vw group enabled google play attestation for their app and not hardware attestation, so my cars app no longer works. This is probably the most frustrating for me because as an EV owner there’s no other way to track the charge of your car other than via the app. This is particularly annoying when using public charge points and you can’t track the charge progress when walking away from the car. First world problem, I can just leave it alone and let it charge without keeping an eye on it but that’s annoying to me, I’m sure I’ll get over it.
- Because of the above, I’m concerned other apps may start to follow suit. For example “too good to go” in the UK is “not compatible” with my device from the play store because it doesn’t pass the play attestation… Hopefully it’s not a trend.
Overall though I would highly recommend. All the other main features work flawlessly.
One of my banking apps enabled Google Play attestation. It’s really infuriating. I don’t understand the point either - AFAIK all apps need to be signed with the dev’s private key anyway, don’t they? If they are then why would anyone care where I downloaded it from?
Take a look at OVMS (open vehicle monitoring system). I use it since I have an EV because I don’t want to pay for “connected services”.
I’ve had zero apps not work, including my banking apps.
Amazing for me tbh. I only had to give up contactless payment since my bank switched to google wallet and I have 0 google apps on my phone. Obtanium and Aurora store are life savers.
Doesn’t help if someone you’re talking to has it on. And unlike Zuck’s stupid glasses you won’t even be able to know unless you ask every single person you talk to first. This sucks.
It’s probably illegal in Germany and some other EU countries. Not that that always stops Big Tech. But this one, at least in Germany, could land the user some jail time.
It’s illegal in parts of the US too
You still gave your money to Google for the phone…
What a useless and irrelevant comment that adds less than nothing to the conversation.
No, I gave it to the person who resold the phone at a lower cost than what I would’ve paid to get it from Don’t Be Evil Inc.
Welcome to your “I only buy vintage tech” era.
Mine started when 3.5 mm audio jacks started disappearing. We all draw a line.
Alternatively - the pocket computer revolution is beginning. Hell, many in my tech circles are making cyberdecks and the sorts with hopes of only using a phone to make and receive calls. Disconnect from the ‘big’ in Big Tech, not the tech :D
Technology divergence is inevitable after corporations saw that convergence into an “all in one device” made their work much simpler.
No surprise feature phones, MP3 players and dedicated-use devices are making a comeback. My wish is for full pocket computers to return.
Well there are adapter cables USB-C to 3.5mm. On my previous phone in my car I used a splitting cable to power it while using the 3.5mm as input to the car radio. However on my new phone Samsung decided to not support it anymore -.-
I’m going off memory here, but I think this was an issue way back with some phones having DAC hardware built in, and others skipping that hardware in exchange for requiring dongles that included such?
Maybe you just need to find a new dongle? Hopefully that helps and sorry if it doesn’t, but I’d rather just have a headphone jack back and skip all the complications…
They don’t always work good. I’ve tried many even Apple versions. It’s finicky somewhat for the audio to pickup like in a car with an aux to the adapter to phone usbc. They do work. Just not perfect. Still prefer 3.5mm jacks and wired headphones. Wireless junk has almost always been a scam to me. Batteries and bluetooth wear out.
I agree but we all carry spy devices with us, it’s too late.
Motorola needs to release those GrapheneOS compatible phones now 💀
Hopefully also as a supported option to the existing phones. I’ve got a Fold and switching is sounding pretty good right now…
Fucking yikes
The people who called me crazy because “there’s no way your phone can be listening in on you all the time” are the same people who are going to be the most excited about this “feature”
How did these people expect “Hey Siri” / “Hey Google” to work?
Im a perfect world, as they claim, its a secondary system listening that isn’t recording or transmitting anything, and is meant to be low power. If it hears the wake up word, it wakes up the other mic and starts recording.
Thats how they claim the smart speakers work anyway.
This was my understanding, but I just don’t believe it anymore. There have been way, way too many time my wife and I were talking about an incredibly niche thing that didn’t come up through the internet in any way, and lo and behold the algorithm presented those key words. Nobody will ever convince me it isn’t being done to some extent.
It doesn’t need to, that’s the issue, there is so much other data you are generating that can be harvested. Nothing you talk about is completely random, so it’s incredibly easy to build profiles about you, without listening to a single word.
I understand that’s the theory, but these situations were specifically not something that could be easily gleaned. We’re talking like reminiscing about things that happened in our pre internet youth that there’s no record of anywhere and that came up randomly in conversation. I’m definitely aware of the dynamic, even before ubiquity of the internet, it’s true that sometimes companies would know people were pregnant before the person did based on their purchasing profile. This wasn’t that though, there’s just no possible connection.
That happened a few times now, so pretty much nothing is going to convince me it’s not the case.
I think you’d be surprised, there is always a connection. Oh some middle aged millennial waxing poetic about nostalgia? Wow, totally haven’t heard that before, and it’s certainly not the singular thing every company is capitalizing on in media currently. No, you are absolutely unique and Google is simply listening to every conversation about you.
No, I wouldn’t be, because I was talking about a random location which was indeed pretty unique. That said, it’s a pleasure to finally meet you, I’m a big fan.
Also, what a random thing to be a prick about lol.
I had this happen many years ago, to the point there was no chance something wasn’t listening. We suspected it was my partners iPhone with Facebook installed before they got better about preventing abuse like that, as it was a Facebook ad that showed up.
Were talking about something where we never use the product, would never use the product, but it came up in a conversation just between the 2 of us, and there were ads the next day.
It happened a few times.
It can’t hear if it isn’t already listening.
“How they claim?” Is there no way to confirm that?
You look for network traffic. You might not be able to see inside the packets, but you can know when they’re sending packets, and how many. As far as I know, voice assistant systems that claim to use a secondary local circuit to detect calls are telling the truth.
They ship with proprietary code, this would be the point of open source.
In practice in my experience, every company is at least skirting the law regarding privacy, and I never worked for one big enough that could lobby itself out of a fine.
Even if it was open source, you’d need to be able to verify what they ship matches the specs. Allowing you to flash whatever you want onto it helps, but you still need to validate the hardware.
would this not be detectable by tracking the data sent through your network?
If its real time monitoring you, but not if its logging data to send later when it would be expected to be doing so.
Audio doesnt take up much space.
I used to run forensic network capture and analysis tools.
First thing, traffic is encrypted. All you will see is a blob of traffic passing through. You used to see hostnames with TLS, but now with quic, you see nothing. This makes it hard.
You could root the phone and install a root ca certificate for a decrypting proxy, you might see more, but the data itself (not just the transport protocol) could be encoded or even encrypted within the network encapsulation.
Next, you’d have to reverse engineer the protocol if they’re using something nonstandard. Also, malware can often be set up to “behave” when it can detect analysis. I’m all but certain Google would do this.
Maybe you could do statistical analysis of the traffic and attempt to baseline normal vs when it’s transmitting audio. It would be a bit of a blind guess at best.
If I had more time, I’d love to try it. I have an old pixel7 pro. Maybe I can sort something out.
People have already done that and shown that no the device isn’t listening to you 24/7 and sending all your data out. There are plenty of papers on the subject, and it makes sense. Why record, decode and analyze all audio when your digital footprint is so much easier to compile and analyze. People aren’t random, so it’s easy to put them into statistical buckets of how to target them. Here is one reference paper (of many): https://recon.meddle.mobi/papers/panoptispy18pets.pdf
I have a memory of people black boxing it and seeing power usage and network traffic that supported the claims but that was a snapshot in time and as others note its all proprietary.
It takes a lifetime to build a good reputation, but you can lose it in a minute.
I dont know. You’d need to reverse engineer the hardware and software to be confident, and could a OTA update then sneak a bypass in anyway?
Edit: i think Amazon might have abandoned this as well and always records on echos now too.
Doesn’t need to track you all the time to know exactly who you are and what you’re up to.
Continuously monitoring is such a waste of their resources, they already know everything about you, they just need to check in now and then to make sure you’re buying the correct t-shirts.
If a song isn’t recognized, a short digital fingerprint may be sent to Google to securely search the cloud. Background conversations and audio are never sent to Google.
And, of course, Google will honor this and any other setting, as always, right? Right?
As soon as they got away with “federated learning” (basically use your phone to train ai then just phone the results home rather than your data) 🤢 they knew they could just keep pushing and pushing and pushing until they have it all
If you’ve got an android, go into your phone’s dev options and try to turn off Google’s location tracking service, or the one that tracks screen inputs, or the one that checks what wifi networks are around you.
They’ve been dishonourable from day 1 :C
That’s such bs short digital fingerprint is anything compressed and encrypted
Constant surveillance 😡
Audio memories 😍
BIG BROTHER IS
WATCHING YOU
HELPING YOU REMEMBER YOUR IMPORTANT CONVERSATIONS
Interesting how the majority of the comments refer to you being monitored on your own phone, ignoring that you will be monitored on everyone else’s phone as well.
Probably something people aren’t thinking about. How would this even work in two party consent states/countries?
The same way slopgen cleverly went around seemingly unbendable coryright laws: by ignoring the shit out of it, and half-scaring half-bribing the governments and the public to allow them to do whatever the fuck they want.
Much like how Facebook includes non-users in their social graph.
Which is also an important issue with google mail.
But this also violates the expectation that spoken conservations are private.
I already get “random” ads for things that were only part of a verbal conversation that happened to be near the phone.
What I want is a physical kill switch for the mic and camera, less surveillance not more.
Even though it’s not technically physical, GrapheneOS does have switches for both the camera and mic that disable them at the system level.
So if you answer a call, for example, you’re prompted to unblock the mic because the phone app is requesting to use the mic.
the pinephone has such kill switches
That’s been happening for well over a decade now, and while “respectable security researchers” call it bullshit… there’s simply too much anecdotal evidence for it to happen organically.
The reality is they don’t need to listen.
They have so much data on users.
- how old you are
- where you are
- what you last bought
- when you just bought it
- who you are near
- what they bought
- what the people around you are searching and what ads they are seeing
- what is being bought and sold by everyone around you
- when you sleep
- what you eat
- the things you are chatting about on MMS
- where you go
- when you’re home and when and where you work
It just goes on and on and on.
People think they are unique but they are not as unique as they think.
NONE of that data can predict a random occurrence discussion that goes in a specific direction.
A great example is something that happened to me in 2015. One night I was out with friends, and one of them had a really bad panic attack. The next day I was discussing it with a colleague during a smoke break, who recommended he gets a clip-on pulse oximeter. No searches, nothing, literally just a half minute detour in our chat. I repeat, nothing was typed in or looked up or in any way entered into any computer intentionally.
Five minutes later we’re sitting in front of our respective computers and I start getting ads for the very thing. Mind you, we’re still at a point where nothing noted during this discussion was entered into any computer. Explain this.
Did anyone you were with the night of the panic attack search for what to do? Or texted anyone about it?
They can link you to other people by networks or nearby devices. Especially if you’re frequently around those people.
It would have been more concerning if your coworker got the ads.
Friend, or friends discussed said panic attack on big tech social in DMs or something. Obviously, you follow your friends, you are likely to go out on Saturdays with them, maybe even your first name was mentioned in their messages, you are now tied to an advertising angle for ‘Panick Attacks’. Data brokers buy this information, serve ads. This is just ONE way the data may have been inferred. This doesn’t include contact scanning, location services and so on.
“who you are near” does.
Someone that has recently purchased something might talk about it.
Someone that has commented on a news article might talk about it.
Someone has a panic attack and googles what to do about it.
You’re right that they don’t need to, but in reality they do whether they announce it or not.
In 2017 I tested this at home alone in my apartment in by myself using my smarphone by finding a site with lots of banner ads, monologing next to my phone about a topic with no relation to my current life at the time for about a minute, then refreshing the page. To my horror, the exact thing I was monologing about showed up on every single banner ad. Nothing in my life was going on related to that topic and the only thing connecting me and the topic was my own vocal words.
That was the moment I decided to avoid Google/big tech for the rest of my life.
Okay but how does all of that
Tell them I’m in the market for a toilet seat?
And then forget to tell them - I only need 1 toilet seat?
that’s an easy one.
google is an ad company, their main customers are the people who buy ads, pretending you need a toilet seat let’s them charge toilet seat makers more to “target” you
All the toilets in your building / neighborhood were installed all the same time and your need for a toilet seat likely matches the average lifespan of that item. They see this, they see you bought a toilet seat.
They don’t sell ads directly for you though. The do sell ads to people your age in your location that might need a toilet seat. They might also know that that item has a high return rate. On the chance you return it they want to sell the opportunity to advertise to you for more to potential customers (ad buyers)
It just goes on and on.
Except they think I’m a 65 year old radiological oncologist in Florida named [my name]. First off, my name is unusual enough that I used to keep tabs on all 13 of us. (you get really bored in the hospital unless you give yourself something to do) None of us work in medicine (well I offer some medical CPEs but that’s education, not medicine) I’ve lived in the hospital I guess. None of us live in Florida. The most famous of us used to be a hockey player, but he hasn’t done shit lately. He’s been to Florida. I’m sure. There’s a hickey team there in Miami, right?
I have been getting ads for stents and sutures and clips and bullshit like isn’t this supposed to be the dude who aims the radiation gun and burns out the cancer? For 25 godsdamned years. How long has goggle existed? That long. I don’t know how I fucked their profile of me but I managed it somehow.
I always wonder whether we’re getting it backwards.
Like, did you see ads for kayaks because you had that conversation about kayaking, or did you have the conversation because an ad company/social network decided it was time for you to get into kayaking?
It may not even be that they advertised kayaking to you. They may just have a very good model of your behaviour that predicts you’re likely to be interested in kayaking.
Honestly this is scarier, and harder to understand. But I suspect it to be the case
Not that hard to understand. They have an extremely large dataset to analyze for “subjects adjacent to these searches” and it returns “kayaking” among other things. Then just show ads for those related things. You ignore the things you’re not considering as background noise, and notice the ones related to your new hobby.
Sorry, harder to understand for the general population. Most people just think their phones are listening to them.
Ah fair enough
I’m figuring it’s smart TVs and smart speakers, not the phones
I have one smart TV and a few streaming devices, none of which have microphones. Yes that includes the remotes. I have zero smart speakers even plugged in to power.
I do have one smart phone with a least one microphone though.
It’s not all that exciting. If the person you had the conversation with searches for the thing and they’re in proximity or on the same network, they can link you to them.
Except as I said NOBODY looked up the term. How many times and in how many forms do I have to state that the MENTION of pulse oximeters was: verbal only, in no way entered into a computer before I started getting the adverts?
The discussion itself wasn’t even that long, colleague asked why I looked so tired, I told him how the previous night we had to call an ambulance and sort the guy out, colleague said “maybe he should get a cheap pulse oximeter, it can be helpful to predict attacks and handle them without a call [for an ambulance]”, and that was it. Topic was dropped.
And no, mutual friends didn’t look it up either as they didn’t care much for the guy (tbf it was a super toxic community I’m glad I’ve left behind).
Except that doesn’t happen.
Yes, it does
OK buddy, you can win the internet argument if it’s that important to you. Just completely gloss over what I was telling you actually occurs so you can be right. 🙄
Are you familiar with ultrasonic cross-device tracking?
It’s an actual technology that’s in use in some places we know of and likely a lot more that we don’t, because who in marketing/advertising WOULDN’T leverage that power if it was an easily accomplished thing?
Should be legally mandated in the surveillance environment we are in.
I’m pretty sure fairphone has that hardwired killswitch
Sadly no, the physical switch recently introduced with FP 6 is by default to activate a distraction-free mode. It can be changed to other features but it’s all software managed, nowhere close to the security of real physical kill switch for mic and camera. https://support.fairphone.com/hc/en-us/articles/27533345946258-Switch-button-Settings
Illegal in Germany. You may not record conversations, if you try to enter something like that as evidence you’ll get punished as well.
I suspect there are many countries with laws like that, and if your phone actually disables the feature when you enter them or just let’s you hang to dry…
I wonder if there’s a legal loophole here? Specifically this works by transcribing “important conversations” into text, it’s not actually storing .mp3 recordings. Obviously still disgusting and I hate it.
The legal loophole is Google can afford to pay the fine. They make more money breaking ze law than they do following they law
This right here. Companies like Google effectively have infinite money and it’s not a big deal for them to pay off the (usually miniscule) fines that they get hit with.
No, the user breaks this law, not the manufacturer. So the loophole for google is, they don’t care about you.
Not a lawyer, but as far as I got it, the storing isn’t the punishable part, the recording is.
You can’t have security cameras filming public spaces (like the road in front of your house). Even if its dummies, as people couldn’t tell the difference whether the camera actually films them or not.
Doubt. The law likely talks about making unauthorized recordings. There is likely nothing in the law that would disallow automatic transcription if no recording is created.
Unless the law is extremely vague such as “it is unlawful for a microphone to pick up conversations” the law likely doesn’t cover this situation.
I am more than happy (and eager) to be proven wrong, but in my experience the law tends to lag behind tech by quite a bit.
I didn’t check the actual law, always a good idea to do so.
So, §201 StGB actually covers both, it is forbidden to “aufnehmen” (record) as well as “mithören” (spy on). Bonus, its forbidden to cite transcription (im Wortlaut mitteilen).
Its an old law, going back to video cameras with magnetic tape and actually tapping a phone line. So it was used quite often, including the mentioned fake surveillance cameras, that didn’t record or even view anything but seemed to the public they did.
When dashcams became a thing people would be sentenced for using them. These days you can use dashcams, but never save for more than 24h or show the recording to anyone but the police/court.
I guess the law is a relict of living next door to Stasi, but its really just a guess of mine.
If huge tech corps are good at anything, it’s swerving around laws or simply deciding to ignore them.
They’ll argue that since you consented, it’s not spying.
And they’ll put something in the terms that it’s your responsibility to inform people around that your or their conversations will be recorded (lol, as if anyone would - but they’ll claim that as a defence.
And if they end up in court and get fined, even millions is just a slap on the wrist compared to how much they made from all that juicy data.
Laws will not stop them.
Google is not breaking the (German) law here, it actually is your responsibility as a user to not spy on people. Failure to do so means up to three years in jail, for a first offender most likely a fine. And your device that you used to break the law might get confiscated.
The later was already the case when people used radar warner apps (banned on Germany as well) and lost their smartphone for that.
if you try to enter something like that as evidence you’ll get punished as well.
They’ll just use parallel construction
No need to, there is no fruit of the poisonous tree in German law. Police can strip search you in bright daylight on a crowded square for no reason - clearly illegal, bit what they find will be used to proscute you. The officers will be punished as well, at most with a stern talking to.
Illegal in parts of the U.S. as well
