looks like an amazing project to support
https://codeberg.org/NerdNextDoor/vim
https://mastodon.social/@mrmasterkeyboard/116192873098653079
IMPORTANT!!!
Your browser (Firefox and chrome) both have ai code in it! Even using librewolf there’s still AI generated code!!!
Your operating system KERNEL allows ai generated commits! Time to switch from Linux.
There’s no AI here.
lol
Yes, a Spite Fork. Those are always well maintained, drama free and stable open souce communities
Better make an AI free fork of linux too then.
Can’t have all those fancy 7.0 changes in my kernel because some dev used AI to check his code formatting before submitting a PR. I’ll stick with my outdated fork thank you very much. Upstream fix for blatant CVE but the fix includes an AI comment? Nooooo thank you.
I mean its not like there’s a reject button for pull requests or anything. Anyone could just submit AI slop and we’d never know. Not even from the blatantly failing CI tests.
Didn’t Torvald’s already chew people out for committing vibe-coded crap? At least I can rest assured the Linux Kernel doesn’t have dysfunctional generated code in it.
I think actually on the programming side, we’re in a fairly good spot. I really think that AI will be a tool and it will make people more productive. I think that vibe coding is great for getting into programming. I think it’s gonna be a horrible thing to maintain. So I don’t think programmers go away. You still want to have the people who know how to maintain the end result. I’m a huge believer in AI. I’m not a huge believer in the things going on around AI. I find the marketing and the market to be sick and twisted, and there is going to be a crash, and it’s gonna be ugly.
Linus Torvalds
Vibe-coding =/= actual coding. He chewed out someone for committing code that was simply churned out by an AI without checking if it’s actually functional code.
Lemme try find his email…
So… typical Linus response to poor code. You’d don’t really need a source, I’ve seen him go off on bad coders more than once, adding AI doesn’t really change much.
I mean… He did say something along the lines of being incompetent for using AI. Or that incompetence made them use AI.
I think Linus sees some benefit in an AI tool catching problems in code you’ve written, but not as a crutch to vibe-code with.
100% agree, but does your average Lemmy user know the difference between vibe coding vs actual coding using some AI tool? Is vim being vibe coded or are the maintainers just using some AI tools?
Based
He sort of did the opposite. He chewed people out for trying to put anti AI language into the docs. He said in effect, “We can’t tell if AI was used so it’s stupid to add anti AI requirements.”
I miss the old Torvalds.
He’s the same but with less personal insults.
That’s like a raw kernel downgrade! I wonder if Vintage Torvalds would have allowed AI into the kernel (Linux is now in the Open Slopware list because of that).
He’s not requiring it or suggesting it. He is being pragmatic. If code passes human review, who submitted it doesn’t matter.
Pragmatism has been his defining personality trait. It’s why he has never cared if Linux is used for profit or military.
I can’t tell if you’re joking…
I’m not, unfortunately.
Absolutely against AI coded garbage but trusting this person to pick up something as important as vim is also crazy. I’ll swap to another editor that has been tested and is a proven solution. Focus your knee jerk reactions so you don’t end up in another problem.
That’s why I use vs code. Definitely no vibe code in there lol There is no escape from micro plastics or AI it seems
Lol, lmao even
do you mean vs codium or are you memeing
Why do you say it’s an amazing project? Looks to me like someone copied vim, and according to the commits did nothing useful other than changing some text in a few files. The author’s comments are all about coming up with a cool name for it, and what “cool” new features to add. I don’t see any plan on actually making this a viable competing project. I don’t see the author having much credentials in leading a project of this caliber either.
Before anyone misunderstands my comment, yes anyone not liking AI should stop using vim, I very much agree. And there are two viable ways forward:
- Switch to a different editor
- Talk to the maintainers of vim to remove AI
This project is not one of them.
Where is the author’s plan to tackle the 1600 issues that vim has open? How do they address the fact that vim has hundreds of commits each month, and literally had 68 contributors in just the last month? In the past month they closed 66 issues with vim. Half of vim’s codebase is written in vimscript, and the other half in C. The new lead maintainer, I quote: “thankfully i know some C, but not vimscript”. They know some C and no vimscript? So how do they plan to develop this project?!
Another quote: “removing old targets, stripping away graphical stuff (who uses this in graphical mode anyways? everyone uses it in the CLI…”, and they already plan to drop Windows support. Already ignoring user’s needs and removing functionality. Now, they are perfectly entitled to do whatever in their fork. But how is it a viable competitor to vim in any way?
Even assuming the worst case scenario on what damage AI can do to the progress of vim’s development, who can seriously suggest that 1 person who doesn’t even know the relevant programming langagues can make a better project than hundreds of experienced contributors that are doing it for years, AI or not?
And again, all the power to them, they can have some fun with their fork. But it’s ridicoulus to suggest it as an alternative. Two years from now, vim will have fixed ~1500 issues at the current rate. And will have a bunch of new ones due to AI. Meanwhile this project will be dead, and the latest version will have 1500 unfixed issues that are all fixed in vim.
Taking a stance again AI in vim? Do it, campaign for it, talk to the maintainers, effect change, review PRs and comment about the AI mistakes you see, submit bug reports for bugs caused by AI and make a case for forbidding it’s use. You have my full support. This fork? It’s obviously going nowhere, it’s a waste of effort that could be used to actually stop AI.
Not sure if it’s irony but there’s a whole lot of something there. A bad programmer forking a popular edutor because they were mad about the skilled programmers using AI in any capacity
Yeah. You may as well just download a release tagged before he AI stuff is added.
Forking open source code is never a waste of effort. That’s literally the reason why open/libre source exists, to have work all done in the open and if some people fundamentally disagree with the work being done, they can start a new workstream.
Of course they can, and I underline that in my comment several times, that this person is free to do it and that’s great for them. I don’t disagree with that at all.
And everyone else is free to evaluate the prospects and realities of that fork.
you could help instead of using ur energy for complaining
That doesn’t even make sense
Where do you think all the contributors to vim came from? Do you think they just appeared day one? This fork just started. Of course there are no other contributors. Every project is a failure if they need to have multiple people working on it the day it’s conceived.
I’d say that every project needs at least one capable person working on it at conception. This one appears to have zero at the moment.
So do you know everyone working on it? To assume noone is capable? Because otherwise this is just offensive. Also the project has been created less than 24 hours ago, so what do u expect already a ton of differences ?
The premise of the comment I responded to was that there are no other contributors besides the the person who forked it, and very same person said that they don’t know vimscript.
Wait, so because vim is allowing code written with AI we are switching to a random fork? The mental gymnastics here are insane once again. Is someone assuming that the vim maintainers are gonna do agentic requests? How is this project gonna handle upstream changes into their own main? Cherry-picking only “confirmed human-only” commits? Decisions like that out of spite, with zero thoughts and just out of principle do not help against slop. You’re just adding human slop to the AI slop.
It’s like people forget emacs exists.
(Please don’t tell me emacs has AI now…)
I wonder if maintainers will start using AI coding tools more quietly, if the internet doesn’t have enough nuance to distinguish experienced people using Claude vs idiot tech Twitter using Claude.
I’m sad I hate to scroll this far to see a sane take. Bad code is bad, AI accelerating the destruction of the planet is bad, but experienced maintainers using the tools that exist is not bad, and trying to fork a project like Vim because of that is insane. Power to them if they actively maintain it, but I don’t see that in the cards.
Wait, so because vim is allowing code written with AI we are switching to a random fork? The mental gymnastics here are insane once again.
What Lemmy community did you think you were in?
A community that has no clue what AI is.
One where we critically discuss issues with and around AI, but it seems we’re just chanting “AI bad” in a circlejerk.
I think you want /r/aicritihype.
Is that your personal opinion, or is that the general consensus of the moderation team? Because if it’s the former, I couldn’t give less f’s about it, if it’s the latter, then you guys probably should rewrite the community description:
“A place for all those who loathe AI to discuss things, post articles, and ridicule the AI hype.”
I’d not call something a discussion if no other or more differentiated opinion is allowed, and putting that up as a community description while reacting with a “yeah, here’s the door, you kinda definitely should leave” is a fucking joke.
My personal opinion. The “moderation team” isn’t a “team” in any sense of the word. VerbFlow/Proud Cascadian just keeps appointing people mods without any consent or advance notice. And sometimes he disappears for months. I happen to be one of the first mods appointed (which I think is why my name appears so high on the list in the sidebar), but I found out I was a mod by randomly visiting my profile page one day and seeing /c/fuck_ai there. There’s no forum where the mods get together to make/discuss moderation policy decisions or anything. The only rules off of which to make any moderation policy decisions are the sidebar and the pinned threads in /c/fuck_ai written by VerbFlow/Proud Cascadian, and they’re… not exactly precise or comprehensive. It’s hard to even really call them an enumeration of “the rules” in any sense.
All that to say, nothing I’ve said in this thread is the consensus of the moderation team because there is no consensus among the moderation team. If there was a feature to let me remove my moderator badge from comments, I’d utilize it. There is an option to “speak as moderator”, but I think that does… kindof the opposite of what I’d want? (Like it’d make the moderator badge bigger and meaner looking or something. I dunno.)
If I was the sole moderator, or if I was sure the other moderators would agree with this action, I might have considered whether any particular moderation action was warranted in this case, but the moderation situation for /c/fuck_ai is… well, disorganized would be greatly understating. Everybody who does any moderating just kindof goes off of their own judgement in the moment, and again the “rules” (if they can even be called that) are severely lacking as anything to base any decisions off of. There are things that are clearly ban-worthy, obviously. (Obvious blatant spam, CSAM, obvious trolls of various sorts, stuff that’s obviously 100% opposite of the aim of /c/fuck_ai.) But is all pro-AI sentiment disallowed in /c/fuck_ai? Speaking as someone who wants a community where that’s the case, I’d love to say yes, but I didn’t found the community and the one who did seems… relatively tolerant of pro-AI sentiment given some of the pinned posts. And the rest of the mod team doesn’t doesn’t have anywhere to weigh in on that question. So… I mean, I’m not going to be the one to start taking any sort of moderation actions to repel every hint of pro-AI sentiment without some level of assurance that I’d have the backing of the rest of the mods in doing so (even if on some level, I’d really love to just ban/delete all pro-AI sentiment and tell people to go create their own community for that just so I don’t have to see it here.)
I dunno. Maybe the mods who want to be mods (and I’m sure there are plenty of /c/fuck_ai mods who aren’t really interested in modding) should get together and establish some way of establishing some consensus or something. I haven’t really had the bandwidth in general to do anything like that, but I think it’s fair to say it’s sorely needed.
Absent a feature to remove my mod badge on a per-comment basis, though, maybe I should either 1) try to initiate some effort to get the mods all on one page, 2) step down as mod, or 3) not comment in a way that might be interpreted as a statement of the consensus of the mod team. I haven’t thought through which one of those if any I should do.
All that to say, nothing I’ve said in this thread is the consensus of the moderation team because there is no consensus among the moderation team. If there was a feature to let me remove my moderator badge from comments, I’d utilize it. There is an option to “speak as moderator”, but I think that does… kindof the opposite of what I’d want? (Like it’d make the moderator badge bigger and meaner looking or something. I dunno.)
Absent a feature to remove my mod badge on a per-comment basis, though, maybe I should either 1) try to initiate some effort to get the mods all on one page, 2) step down as mod, or 3) not comment in a way that might be interpreted as a statement of the consensus of the mod team. I haven’t thought through which one of those if any I should do.
I did not want to call you out on the mod badge, it was a legit question. Because if this community is thought/planned to be an anti-AI sentiment only, it’s fair game, and then I can just call it quits and block the community on my end, because I have zero interest in neither techbro vibe code stories nor in anything that mentions AI is bad stories.
Sorry if the comment came out wrong - I just realized there that you were a mod, and probably misinterpreted your comment as well, since the whole comment chain before has been kinda heated too.
But I definitely think that you guys (as in the whole moderation team, whoever that might be in the end) should most definitely set it clear whether this is anti AI only, no discussions, or a critical discussion of AI where, given the name, the majority is obviously anti AI, but critical discussion is welcomed and encouraged. Both are fine, but y’all need to bite the bullet and decide which it is, the current state is … weird to say the least.
The word slop has become overused to the point that I am not sure what slop is anymore.
Anything I don’t like is slop
What mental gymnastics? I’ve already installed EVi on my dev VM, seems to work fine. Problem solved, as far as I’m concerned, and I’m glad to lend my public voice in support of a slop-free fork.
Of course it works fucking fine if it’s a hard fork of a stable state.
What mental gymnastics? The ones you’re doing right now. You have not answered a single question from my comment. And what “problem” did you solve exactly? Has there been any issue that has come up because of the acceptance of AI in vim? What kind of “slop” is actually there that makes vim problematic for you?
People vibe coding random bullshit ideas because they now can, do indeed produce slop. A bunch of highly experienced devs working on a successful project for years using tools that are at their disposal properly is not slop. You’re lending your public voice to a split of the community and of the project for made up bullshit reasons based on no objective proof but claims of slop and out of principle.
I’d trust the original vim maintainers to decide what’s a good or bad pull, instead of a bunch of random people who simply hard forked for literally no reason.
You don’t get to tell other people how to do their activism. THAT’s bullshit. And you don’t get to tell other people what is or is not slop. I don’t use projects with LLM-coded contributions, which I definitely do call slop, if I can help it. This was an easy problem to solve: compile an AI-free fork, alias vim=evi, and boom done.
I’ve never told anyone how to do their activism, I’ve criticized the consequences of said activism, which I still haven’t got answered, and the lack of objective arguments for this specific instance of activism, which I still haven’t heard, except for “AI bad lol”.
I’ve been rolling with the definition of slop that’s kinda universally agreed on, that is low quality, spammy AI generated content, and I’d ask again for an example of that in vim, but since your definition is “LLM used = slop”, I don’t need to do that here I guess. Also, you’ve missed the irony of telling me to not tell people what slop is, while telling me what slop is right after.
I don’t understand how you can be so dense to call that an easy problem that’s just boom done. It’s not about compiling and aliasing it, you can do that on probably any commit of vim. It’s about the maintenance and longevity of the fork, who’s gonna support it, and will it have a proper level of maintenance that will make it productively usable in the long term? It’s been forked to a “pre-AI” state of vim, how is it known that it’s not having LLM generated (as in LLM assisted) content already, before the official guidelines have mentioned that? If all that makes evi stand out is a strict no-ai policy, how is this gonna be checked and enforced (e.g human developer uses LLM tooling on his local machine, without disclosing it)? Who are the developers behind it, greetings from xz and similar supply chain attacks? How are upstream changes and fixes handled, since you’ll use it at some point with elevated privileges or to edit sensitive files? But yeah, fuck all of that, it compiles and you can just alias it, right, so we can talk about the severe problems in the open issues - will vim script be renamed too, and we need to rename vimrc to evirc asap, and boom done.
I’ve said it here at some point already, screeching “AI IS BAD REEEE” is not helping the case, it’s discrediting the “movement” or “activism” as a whole. AI will not leave. When the bubble bursts, people will stop shoving it everywhere, but it will stay where it can be used properly. Software engineering is something where it CAN be used properly, since whatever you’re building doesn’t give a flying fuck about who’s been writing the code. It’s either good, or it’s bad. Instead of worthless decisions on principle, do better. Coach and talk with people on how to do better, how to live in a world with AI responsibly and for good. Avoid, boycott and fork the ones deciding to not do that, based on objective reasons, and build it better. That’s what activism is about, using your actions to lead to change for the better, or isn’t it? And I don’t see how a hard fork, with all the mentioned consequences and problems, for the simple reason of vim maintainers saying “disclose AI usage” is leading to anything better just for the reason of shoveling an antislop and no-ai tag into the codeberg repository.
slop-free fork
Based on what, exactly? I work with real people who write very sloppy code. If you’re trying to make a statement by switching away from vim, why not go to emacs, nano, or sublime?
The mental gymnastics is trusting a completely unknown person more than an LLM. LLMs are about as trustworthy and competent as the average person. In my book, that puts them far below reputable developers (like Moolenaar), but far above complete randos like the EVi dev. At least the LLM is somewhat predictable, but people can be crazy.
Wow, that’s quite an accusation against the lead maintainer of EVi, and furthermore you seem to be in the wrong forum because this one is called Fuck AI. So last I checked it’s perfectly alright to say fuck AI and also fuck the LLMs you’ve placed such unwarranted confidence in.
“maintainer” lol hold on lemme fork vim so I can become a maintainer as well.
I’m not sure what you’re lol’ing about. This is literally how open source software works. People can fork projects if they don’t like something about how the project is run.
Because starting a fork and maintaining a fork are 2 different things. We’ll see where this ends up, most likely forgotten.
I’m accusing them of… not being someone I’m familiar with? Someone I don’t implicitly trust? If that’s all, the same applies to pretty much everyone else on the internet, including you.
Fuck AI, and fuck LLMs. Does that help?
But also: fuck scammers, hackers, and thieves. I don’t know the EVi dev and have no reason to trust them.
Why can’t projects adding AI just fork a new project with AI?? Call it vimai or something and let people choose it if they want it. Stop ruining things
I can’t figure it out.
For the past hour, I’ve been trying to figure out what anime or series or movie or book or something that I watched in the 2000s, where humanity splits between the pure humans that use less tech, and the tech-forward humans or ai or something, and have spaceship and mecha fights between the two factions of types of humans or whatever that span across the universe.
I can’t figure it out and I give up. Just thought you should know.
Is it possibly Gurren Lagan?
it’s been almost 20 years since I watched it. I honestly don’t remember much of the story. It very well could be, like after they go to space and before the end. Was there ever a dynamic in the story where they were in space and that dynamic was in play?
I’m somewhat curious, though there’s a lot of media with a similar premise. It reminded me of a book series (Starship’s Mage) with a rather different premise I’ve read through (though new books came out since, need to come back sometime), a magic civilization driven by humans who can genetically do magic, including using a ship amplifier to teleport spaceships lightyears at a time, trying to coexist with the faction that actively rejected magic and is trying to advance through technology on their own.
Bro how am I gonna have time to go party with babes if I’m stuck at home coding this non-ai version bro the future is now man bro dude whoa
deleted by creator
Wait what? Vim has AI now? Jfc
I think they’re saying before developers started using AI to write the code, not that there are ai features in vim.
Wait, what the fuck?
vimhas LLM shit in it now?!?As far as I understand, they are allowing usage of LLM for developing on vim, aka adding features to the editor.
…motherfucker… -_- The only users I block are agentics.
Well, TIL. I’ll have to be more vigilant going forward. God, this era of tech fucking sucks.
yeah
Had to look up wth an agentic is. Concur, awful.
Probably a good time to consider helix or ki over vim
Does this mean emacs won?
Yes
Contributor Licensing Agreements FTW?
😭 – damn, time to try emacs again…
Use Doom Emacs.
It has Vi bindings with Evil, and a nice scripting language with Emacs Lisp.
I recommend Doom Emacs as a readymade packaging that also eliminates the need to strain the fingers for the annoying modifier keys in the vast majority of cases.
And neovim. Micro has entered the ring
this is why nano is superior
edWhat a strange way to spell emacs
emacs is a fantastic operating system, it just lacks a good editor.
I believe you mean helix
slop code in vim? really?? wtf
They call it… Slim.
I can’t believe ai slop is in vim of all things, also there aren’t any ai slop code in nano btw
Any idea if Neovim is slop coded too?
Oh man, how about emacs?
Probably safe, contributing to Emacs requires giving the FSF your copyright and AI code isn’t copyrightable in America. Can’t speak for the starter kits, I know Doom Emacs uses AI but not the others.
